Questions about a vintage head

[riksf]

Hey folks, new old boat owner here, slowly working my way through the various systems and finding new things to fix every day, not surprisingly.

Anyhow, I've put off working on the plumbing as long as I could, but now it's time. The boat has a Wilcox Crittenden head which probably hasn't been used in over a decade. It appears to work perfectly when pumping the bowl out to the holding tank, but the water intake doesn't seem to work. It has a valve that I assume controls the raw water flow (see photos below), but I've tried pumping with it fully turned in both directions and no dice.

1. Am I interpreting this valve correctly, or is there some other trick?

2. If something's broken, any ideas what would cause the pump to work for emptying the bowl but not for drawing water in?

3. Is it possible this thing was actually designed to be used with a pressurized freshwater system? (the water intake was disconnected when I bought the boat and there isn't a separate thru-hull for it, though it might have shared the sink drain)

4. I kinda like the style of this thing, but am I in for a world of hurt if I don't just replace it with something more modern?

Any and all advice appreciated, thanks!

[tkeithlu]

Hopefully Peggy Hall will stop by with an authoritative answer, but for starters a crusted up duck bill valve on the inlet side could do that. Just looking at the photos, I would disassemble the whole thing, replace the rubber, clean everything, reassemble and have a beautiful bronze head when you are finished.

[JPA Cate]

You can actually polish them and lacquer it before reassembly, look quite spiffy.

Inlets get blocked by barnacles; small fish; plastic bags, and if you're lucky, that's all it will be. Most of the older toilets are salt water, and the inlets are placed well away from the outlets. Outlets become sclerotic over time, and the hoses require banging out on the dock to break up the deposits. [Said deposits are from urine chemically reacting with sea water, and chemical salts plate out on the hose. It is said that adding a little vinegar with each flush changes the pH enough for the salts to stay in solution.] Increasing difficulty pumping it out would be an indicator that it may be time to do that again.

Our previous boat had a bronze pump, and it became difficult to get the leathers for the pump. Jim had an engineering shop make up a grooved disc for the pump that accepted a large diameter "O" ring (~ 10 mm), and that cured our pumping woes. He used vacuum pump grease on it.

If you live somewhere with strict holding tank laws, I don't know if there's something else that will affect that particular toilet's use, but we used our old one for about 18 yrs., and it worked adequately.

Ann

[peghall]

It doesn't sound like he's figured out yet that stepping on the pedal at the bottom of the pump brings in water...at least he hasn't mentioned doing that, he's trying to use the pump to bring in water. Unless the toilet is above waterline--which doesn't seem likely on his boat--you don't "pump" the pedal, you just step on it long enough to bring in the amount of water you want. Hopefully the pedal isn't missing...I can't see enough of the toilet to see! But I can see enough of the hoses to know that once you figure out how it works, they all need to be replaced.



If the toilet hasn't been used in years, it definitely needs lubrication. If it's old enough for the gaskets, o-rings etc to be leather, flush about a tablespoon of veggie oil down it only far enough to remain in the pump when it can stay there overnight. 'Cuz leather absorbs oil, you'll only have to do this once or twice a year. (Using veggie oil to lube toilets that have rubber etc innards is a holdover from the days when toilets had leather innards. But 'cuz rubber doesn't absorb oil, it just washes out in a few flushes).


I can't tell which model W-C toilet he has...most likely a Skipper. Once I know for sure I can email the exploded drawing and parts list for it to you.



--Peggie

[gonesail]

so is the water intake seacock open and clear? is the intake hose clear to the head? you should see some water at the end of the intake hose and from your picture it looks dry.

[hpeer]

Those things are like $2,500 each, no?

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by riksf

Hey folks, new old boat owner here, slowly working my way through the various systems and finding new things to fix every day, not surprisingly.

Anyhow, I've put off working on the plumbing as long as I could, but now it's time. The boat has a Wilcox Crittenden head which probably hasn't been used in over a decade. It appears to work perfectly when pumping the bowl out to the holding tank, but the water intake doesn't seem to work. It has a valve that I assume controls the raw water flow (see photos below), but I've tried pumping with it fully turned in both directions and no dice.

1. Am I interpreting this valve correctly, or is there some other trick?

2. If something's broken, any ideas what would cause the pump to work for emptying the bowl but not for drawing water in?

3. Is it possible this thing was actually designed to be used with a pressurized freshwater system? (the water intake was disconnected when I bought the boat and there isn't a separate thru-hull for it, though it might have shared the sink drain)

4. I kinda like the style of this thing, but am I in for a world of hurt if I don't just replace it with something more modern?

Any and all advice appreciated, thanks!

The bowl is Wilcox but the rest Looks to me like an old AB Sands & Son Co.head and yes that quarter turn valve is for water intake . Where does the hose go that is supposed to be hooked up to it ? That is the raw water intake for the pump.

[MicHughV]

40 years ago I salvaged a W-C head just like that out of an old wood English boat that has sunk. It's a classic, no two ways about it. At the time, I was able to contact a dealer somewhere in Maine that still sold rebuild kits for it.

It is quite the contraption for sure, but damn, they work great
At some later time, I wanted to rebuild it once more, but was told that parts for it were no longer available.
I don't recall that there was a foot pedal involved, but could be wrong about that. I do remember that there were several levers involved.

You can google W-C rebuild kits online....I did...and was surprised to see several kits available. Besides that an instruction manual is also available online.

Take it apart, clean it, put in new parts, lube what you need to and you will have a head that will give you stellar service for years.

[Bowdrie]

Well, it sure isn't a Skipper, and it doesn't use a foot pedal to control the inlet water.
WC bought out the Sands company long before any of us were born.
They kept building that machine under their own name.
It's a "Type 4", usually referred to as the "Winner" model.
It's about the most ancient of US made toilets.
If you're a better detective than Chief Inspector Clouseau and have some luck you might find a few parts.
Cleaned up and functional it'll give good service.

https://marinesan.com/tecma-thetford...parts-drawing/

[riksf]

Amazing, thank you all for the quick responses. I'm getting up the nerve to take it apart, likely tomorrow (hoping I'll be able to put it back together again and it won't work any worse than it does now!).

Originally Posted by peghall

It doesn't sound like he's figured out yet that stepping on the pedal at the bottom of the pump brings in water...at least he hasn't mentioned doing that, he's trying to use the pump to bring in water. Unless the toilet is above waterline--which doesn't seem likely on his boat--you don't "pump" the pedal, you just step on it long enough to bring in the amount of water you want. Hopefully the pedal isn't missing...I can't see enough of the toilet to see! But I can see enough of the hoses to know that once you figure out how it works, they all need to be replaced.

I didn't see a pedal (and from other responses, it sounds like this model might not have one), but I'll take a closer look tomorrow to make sure I didn't miss either a pedal or a place where one used to be.

Originally Posted by peghall

If the toilet hasn't been used in years, it definitely needs lubrication. If it's old enough for the gaskets, o-rings etc to be leather, flush about a tablespoon of veggie oil down it only far enough to remain in the pump when it can stay there overnight.

Thanks, once it's apart I'll see if there are leather or rubber innards.

Originally Posted by gonesail

so is the water intake seacock open and clear? is the intake hose clear to the head? you should see some water at the end of the intake hose and from your picture it looks dry.

Originally Posted by newhaul

The bowl is Wilcox but the rest Looks to me like an old AB Sands & Son Co.head and yes that quarter turn valve is for water intake . Where does the hose go that is supposed to be hooked up to it ? That is the raw water intake for the pump.

The hose isn't connected to anything yet (I'm planning to tee off the sink drain), but before I disconnected it from the head I tried sticking the other end into a bucket of water and pumping the handle.

Originally Posted by Bowdrie

Well, it sure isn't a Skipper, and it doesn't use a foot pedal to control the inlet water.
WC bought out the Sands company long before any of us were born.
They kept building that machine under their own name.
It's a "Type 4", usually referred to as the "Winner" model.
It's about the most ancient of US made toilets.
If you're a better detective than Chief Inspector Clouseau and have some luck you might find a few parts.
Cleaned up and functional it'll give good service.

Good to know, thanks! After all these comments I'm inclined to take a stab at fixing this one up instead of replacing it wit just another Jabsco. It's definitely not something you see every day.

[peghall]

I think you mean that the PUMP is Wilcox..the bowl is clearly labelled "AB Sands" in one of the thumbnail photos. That's not what's on at the back of the bowl in the OP's first photo, but the resolution is too soft for me to be able to read it even with a magnifying glass.



Wilcox bought AB Sands--at least the Skipper--sometime in the'40s. Somewhere in my files I have a photo of an early--maybe even the earliest--WC Skipper pump with the

WC logo emblazoned on the pump and "AB Sands" below it much smaller. I'll post it if I can find i.

[riksf]

Originally Posted by peghall

I think you mean that the PUMP is Wilcox..the bowl is clearly labelled "AB Sands" in one of the thumbnail photos. That's not what's on at the back of the bowl in the OP's first photo, but the resolution is too soft for me to be able to read it even with a magnifying glass.

Yep, it's pretty faded but the label on my bowl appears to be:
Middletown, Conn. U.S.A.
Wilcox Crittenden

[peghall]

That toilet is almost certainly original...What year is the boat?



--Peggie

[riksf]

Originally Posted by peghall

That toilet is almost certainly original...What year is the boat?

1977 -- some here might've seen the ad for it a few months ago

[Don C L]

That's Celestial's boat? Well send him a PM!
A friend of mine had one of those WC pumps on his boat so many years ago. It was great (if you can say that about a head) I didn't recall a foot pedal on it though, but I do remember how much I liked the pump. If you can figure out how to rebuild it, go for it!