Refrigeration startup and rehab

[icemate]

[QUOTE=sailah;2441836]I bought my boat with an Adler/Barbour Cold Machine setup. Evap plate in a reasonably well insulated box. I believe the compressor is the BD35F, boat is currently dry docked undergoing repairs from an impact.

When we bought the boat, the surveyor noted the refrigeration system wasn't getting very cold, although it did get somewhat cold and the evaporator plate iced up a little. It was awhile ago so I'm going on memory.

I attempted to use it a few times and the compressor would just run and run without getting plate even remotely cold. So I said forget it and just used ice for the cruising we did as a family.

But it's been bothering me ever since and I do want to get it back up and running. I bought Richard Kollmans book and read it a few times. I've watched every YouTube video and tried to arm myself with as much knowledge as I can.

The evaporator plate looks to be in good condition, and the lineset as well. The only place I didn't like where the lineset was led is where it passes around a brace for one of the batteries. This leads me to the suspicion that somehow I may have a leak.

I have the following tools:

Manifold gauge set
Vacuum pump
Can tap
UV dye and flashlight
FLIR and Fluke temp measuring devices
Multimeter
Ultrasonic leak detector (Accutrak VPE)
Argon tank with regulator (welding gas I don't have nitrogen)
4 cans of DuPont Suva R134A

I'm a good listener and can follow instructions pretty well. I'll be getting the boat back next week and would like to understand this system and get it working.

Assuming teh system has been essentially unused for 4 years and had very weak cooling when it did work what would you recommend I do?

My plan is to do the following:

See if there is any pressure in system
If yes, well that changes things. If no, connect vacuum pump and let run for awhile to see how well it's holding vacuum. Can a regular gauge set do this or do I need some fancy micron gauge to test vacuum?
Let's say it doesn't hold vacuum. Purge with argon and use ultrasonic to see if I can pinpoint leak? I've been reading that UV dye is not good for these but how else am I supposed to pinpoint leak, soapy water? Obviously if I find the leak that will need to be addressed.

If a small amount of UV dye is fine to check, when do I introduce this to the system? I was thinking of adding some and then purging/pressurizing system with argon. That should get it to the leak yes?

After I rectify the leak, or maybe there isn't one (well how'd the charge get so low...) I was wondering the best way to meter the Suva back in after I vacuum it down again. 5 second blasts and wait 30 minutes to check frost on evap plate as Richard suggests? Small scale to weigh can?

Thanks for any suggestions or best practices, looking forward to this and subsequent improvements to thermostat and temp monitoring of ice box.[/QUOTE


First, try hooking up your vacuum pump with your gauges to the system and see if you can draw 28 inches w,c on your low side of gauges. If it does not go below 15 inches w/c it's obvious there is large leak. If it holds there and does not rise quickly, a small leak can be taken care of easily with leak seal that you can buy at most refrigeration houses. Vacuum, hook up leak seal and weigh in refrigerant charge. You should be fine after that. Keep condenser clear and clean.

[Mark Thurlow]

If it is a Danfoss compressor it has an inbuilt fault code that can be detected with a neon shunt or meter with a continuity buzzer. See web site and the YouTube vids.

[Bleemus]

I sent a private message to NorCal and he says he uses 200 psi for leak testing. He added that if he knows it is a leaker and he cant find it he will bump it to 300 but that is not recommended. Good luck!

[sailah]

Originally Posted by Mark Thurlow

If it is a Danfoss compressor it has an inbuilt fault code that can be detected with a neon shunt or meter with a continuity buzzer. See web site and the YouTube vids.

I dont get any LED codes popping up on the compressor. At least not that I recall but it's been a couple years since I was actually back there while it was running. But I will surely check to see if it's faulting before tearing things apart. Thanks

[QUOTE=icemate;2442240]

Originally Posted by sailah

I bought my boat with an Adler/Barbour Cold Machine setup. Evap plate in a reasonably well insulated box. I believe the compressor is the BD35F, boat is currently dry docked undergoing repairs from an impact.

When we bought the boat, the surveyor noted the refrigeration system wasn't getting very cold, although it did get somewhat cold and the evaporator plate iced up a little. It was awhile ago so I'm going on memory.

I attempted to use it a few times and the compressor would just run and run without getting plate even remotely cold. So I said forget it and just used ice for the cruising we did as a family.

But it's been bothering me ever since and I do want to get it back up and running. I bought Richard Kollmans book and read it a few times. I've watched every YouTube video and tried to arm myself with as much knowledge as I can.

next week and would like to understand this system and get it working.

Assuming teh system has been essentially unused for 4 years and had very weak cooling when it did work what would you recommend I
with argon. That should get it to the leak yes


First, try hooking up your vacuum pump with your gauges to the system and see if you can draw 28 inches w,c on your low side of gauges. If it does not go below 15 inches w/c it's obvious there is large leak. If it holds there and does not rise quickly, a small leak can be taken care of easily with leak seal that you can buy at most refrigeration houses. Vacuum, hook up leak seal and weigh in refrigerant charge. You should be fine after that. Keep condenser clear and clean.

Thanks will try the vacuum test first. All my research says to stay away from anything other than pure R134a for the system. The idea of a quick fix is obviously appealing but I want to be sure I'm not causing unintended consequences down the road.

Anyone else want to comment on stop leak type stuff?

Originally Posted by Bleemus

I sent a private message to NorCal and he says he uses 200 psi for leak testing. He added that if he knows it is a leaker and he cant find it he will bump it to 300 but that is not recommended. Good luck!

Thank you sir. That's a fair bit of pressure but I think I can manage. Might try and wrassle an actual nitrogen tank from my gas supplier, running argon would be expensive.

[stnick]

Call the AC guy first My guess a old compressor has lived its life the plate lasts for ever. My new compressor is 9x9 inches a very small cube. I did reinsulate my box last season near the plate i have below 32 Degrees othe side the frig is usually 6 degrees warmer and when cruising I get 2 chunks of dry ice one in each side with 20 lbs of cubes both sides. I have cold for 14 days with very little power draw. I also have solar 235 A to keep up with the frig use when i cruise. You will be proud od a new compressor Very small and better tech power draw.

[john61ct]

Dunno, the Danfoss units have been very long-lived right from the beginning.

[a64pilot]

Stay way away from the stop leak stuff, bet it's great for stopping that critical orifice leak[emoji3]

[hellosailor]

"Everyone" except the folks who make leak seal, seems to say that it can and probably will gum something up, sometime further down the line. The only folks who recommend it are the folks who make it, no so oddly. If you needed to "limp home" with a leaking system, OK, but since you can look for the leak (and with all those tools have a good chance of finding it) I'd pass on the leak seal.

Just a personal opinion.

[sailah]

Originally Posted by stnick

Call the AC guy first My guess a old compressor has lived its life the plate lasts for ever.

I subscribe to a different philosophy I guess. I was taught to wring every last drop from something even if I could afford to buy a new one.

The compressor is not old, it's most likely 2004 vintage and unused for the last 4 years I have owned the boat. It looks new honestly, shiny and unused.

My suspicion lies within a leak somewhere, as I have observed the cooling of the compressor to fall to zero in my ownership. I have a couple places that I suspect as well. I have the tools, I have the desire to learn about a system that has so far escaped my attention.

I could always whip out my credit card and swipe my way to bliss but it's just not how I'm wired. What if it turns out to be a loose fitting? a few hours playing around and charge it back up works great. How much would a new system cost? $2500+?

I mainly do things for the knowledge. 3 days ago our fancy 2 year old Samsung dryer was making a horrible screeching sound when spinning. My wife immediately starts shopping for a new one, I went for the tools.

Upon disassembly I find the idler pulley that locates the drum belt has wallowed out the oilite bearing and was causing the noise. Amazon had the whole idler kit for $20 but it was a week out.

Went to my garage machine shop, bored out the old idler on the lathe, press fit in (3) new skateboard sealed bearings I had and machined a new custom drive shaft from some scrap and TIG welded it in. Yeah sounds like a lot of work, but honestly took 30 minutes and most of that was finding out where I stashed away the old bearings.

So fixed it myself, saved buying a new $1000 dryer, saved waiting for a service guy to take it apart and more importantly had clean undies to wear to work the next day.

Originally Posted by john61ct

Dunno, the Danfoss units have been very long-lived right from the beginning.

That's what I hear and has me pursuing the repair.

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Stay way away from the stop leak stuff, bet it's great for stopping that critical orifice leak[emoji3]

Yeah that's the one orifice I'm not interested in plugging

Originally Posted by hellosailor

"Everyone" except the folks who make leak seal, seems to say that it can and probably will gum something up, sometime further down the line. The only folks who recommend it are the folks who make it, no so oddly. If you needed to "limp home" with a leaking system, OK, but since you can look for the leak (and with all those tools have a good chance of finding it) I'd pass on the leak seal.

Just a personal opinion.

Thanks for your opinion it is noted and shared. I'm wary of quick fixes, often they prolong the inevitable and make the real fix take twice as long. I guess there are exceptions to this but this doesn't seem like one of them.

[john61ct]

If your wife ever leaves you, will you marry me?

I'll take a mad skillset over riches any day 8-)

[a64pilot]

A worn out Danfoss is pretty rare I think, usually the wiring rots out, maybe the condenser and the plate it sits on rusts away and a new one is bought based on it just looks terrible, it must be on its last legs, but that little compressor puts the Energizer bunny to shame.
Probably not a Danfoss, but a sealed compressor of course.
Our Sears Kenmore fridge was replaced after 30 yrs of continuous use, I had replaced icemakers twice and one thermostat, but the fridge was replaced because it was rusting on the exterior and the Wife didn't like the way it looked, but after 30 years it was cooling as well as it did on day one.

[DeepFrz]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

A worn out Danfoss is pretty rare I think, usually the wiring rots out, maybe the condenser and the plate it sits on rusts away and a new one is bought based on it just looks terrible, it must be on its last legs, but that little compressor puts the Energizer bunny to shame.
Probably not a Danfoss, but a sealed compressor of course.
Our Sears Kenmore fridge was replaced after 30 yrs of continuous use, I had replaced icemakers twice and one thermostat, but the fridge was replaced because it was rusting on the exterior and the Wife didn't like the way it looked, but after 30 years it was cooling as well as it did on day one.

Not quite the same environment though is it. Especially if it is water or keel cooled. Also many of the installations are sub par.

[Mazu]

To verify, first connect the gauge to the charging port (suction side) if you have pressure compared to ambient then you probably don't have a leak. If no pressure then charge slowly to around 150 PSI with NITROGEN....which is a hell of a lot cheaper and less moisture contaminated than argon. Identity leak. If the leak is at a solder joint then just apply heat and a little solder but first you should contact the manufacture and see what solder is used. Probably it is 95/5. DO NOT USE PLUMBERS SOLDER!! and...you cannot mix solder with silver braze should it be braised. It is also possible it is silver brazed at which point you will need a turbo torch or MAPP gas set up to repair as a standard plumbers torch will not be hot enough.. If you have a abrasion in the line somewhere then cut out the bad section and splice a union in line. Use 5 - 10% silver braze rod if this is the case. Pull a vacuum to 29" after repairs are done and isolate the system by closing the manifold gauge handles and shut off the pump. Wait about 1 hour. No rise in gauge pressure should be noted. Charge the system until you have a superheat of about 12 - 15 degrees. This is the outlet temperature of the plate minus the saturation temperature as read on the low side manifold gauge. Another less accurate measurement is an approximate 20 degree difference between the inlet and outlet of the plate lines measured at the plate. If you have to sweat in a union you may consider adding a sight glass in the liquid line for future diagnosis. It would also behoove you to change the filter drier also when performing these repairs.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by DeepFrz

Not quite the same environment though is it. Especially if it is water or keel cooled. Also many of the installations are sub par.

Should be close, of course if it's water cooled and the condenser fails and lets water into the refrigerant, its game over.
I know about the increased corrosion etc., that is why I said often the death of a marine system is when the wiring, base plate etc rots out, but usually that little Danfoss is still happily humming away.
Sealed compressors really impress me as a mechanical type, what else do you know that literally runs nearly all the time for decades?

The very old AB super cold machine I had in my boat, I gave to someone else, who installed it in their boat and it's running fine, it was according to a photo I sent to Richard a circa 1980's machine.
Tough little bugger

[sailah]

Originally Posted by Mazu

To verify, first connect the gauge to the charging port (suction side) if you have pressure compared to ambient then you probably don't have a leak. If no pressure then charge slowly to around 150 PSI with NITROGEN....which is a hell of a lot cheaper and less moisture contaminated than argon. Identity leak. If the leak is at a solder joint then just apply heat and a little solder but first you should contact the manufacture and see what solder is used. Probably it is 95/5. DO NOT USE PLUMBERS SOLDER!! and...you cannot mix solder with silver braze should it be braised. It is also possible it is silver brazed at which point you will need a turbo torch or MAPP gas set up to repair as a standard plumbers torch will not be hot enough.. If you have a abrasion in the line somewhere then cut out the bad section and splice a union in line. Use 5 - 10% silver braze rod if this is the case. Pull a vacuum to 29" after repairs are done and isolate the system by closing the manifold gauge handles and shut off the pump. Wait about 1 hour. No rise in gauge pressure should be noted. Charge the system until you have a superheat of about 12 - 15 degrees. This is the outlet temperature of the plate minus the saturation temperature as read on the low side manifold gauge. Another less accurate measurement is an approximate 20 degree difference between the inlet and outlet of the plate lines measured at the plate. If you have to sweat in a union you may consider adding a sight glass in the liquid line for future diagnosis. It would also behoove you to change the filter drier also when performing these repairs.

That is some great info thank you very much!!

I've been messing around with adding a digital temperature controller to the Danfoss as a replacement for the analog thermostat. Gives a nice readout of box temp too which I think is pretty handy.

Thought I would shoot a quick video of my musings for building both the temperature controller circuit as well as a variable resistance pot to control the Danfoss compressor speed.

Both these circuits will be built into a small panel I'll have laser cut and anodized and mounted in galley. I also plan to bring the diagnostics LED from the Danfoss out to the panel for convenience but that's just a wire.

Let me know what you think or if you have questions about how i did it

Starting at 6:00 I forgot the pot was a 2.4K pot not a 10K pot so just ignore the video after that I made a clean video below once I figured out I'm an idiot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGKE0AuXOlo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MkdU7CywVc