The cult of the Proper Flanged Thru-hull

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Groco 1.5" = $268.

Beneteau 1.5" DZR** ball valve = $28.21

** Surveyed hundreds of Beneteaus, jeanneaus, Hanse and Bavarias' and never seen a
DZR ball valve only plated brass

(photo below) This price difference becomes critical when you build a boat with 22 throughulls like this 54' Jeanneau. Note they are plated brass valves and not marked as DZR. I've also seen the plans from many Euro designers as I've used these for tonnage measurements and have never seen seacock or valves specified. If you think designers are specifying valves you are sadly mistaken.

Mass produced boats like the ones you name are a different kettle of fish.

They are built to a price. I don't criticize that -- the result is that people can afford them, and that's a good thing. But that also means that every corner which can be reasonably cut, needs to be cut. And sometimes they cut some corners which can't be cut. I COMPLETELY agree with you about brass ball valves and other crap you sometimes see. That's a corner that should never have been cut; that's a screwup.

But let's not confuse that with the issue of whether only a flanged fitting will do, and whether a quality bronze flangeless fitting -- like done on the high end boats I listed -- is somehow recklessly wrong.

These are two different questions. The problem is not lack of flanges; the problem is inappropriate materials.

And yes, the designers do get involved with questions like this. Not when dealing with huge companies like Groupe Beneteau, who have their own considerable engineering staffs, but by all means when working for Swan etc., who outsource this. I saw the working drawings for my own boat -- in Bill Dixon's office, which was located about 50 meters from my first marina berth on the Hamble River. Bill's own boat (a beautiful Moody 47) was berthed in the next row from mine. The working drawings for my boat specified the underwater fittings down to the item numbers -- all Maestrini.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Groco 1.5" = $268.

Beneteau 1.5" DZR** ball valve = $28.21

** Surveyed hundreds of Beneteaus, jeanneaus, Hanse and Bavarias' and never seen a
DZR ball valve only plated brass

(photo below) This price difference becomes critical when you build a boat with 22 throughulls like this 54' Jeanneau. Note they are plated brass valves and not marked as DZR. I've also seen the plans from many Euro designers as I've used these for tonnage measurements and have never seen seacock or valves specified. If you think designers are specifying valves you are sadly mistaken.

A tonnage survey on a leisure yacht consists of about two measurements , I’ve done several uk tonnage measurements.

It’s got absolutely nothing whatsoever with tru hulls

Stop conflating different things.

And nothing from Beneteau can be got for $ 28. Where are you getting this stuff

My Bavaria has no platted brass , my neighbours Bavaria has no plated brass. all the fittings are stamped “ CR “ which is CW602

As I said after 10 years my PO had the two underwater fittings removed. , he kept one that was cut open. He did it based on the scare stories in the U.K. press at the time. The yard engineers laughed at him. They replaced them anyway and cut one open. It was fine and he now admits all he did was waste money.

In my marina there are 600 boats. The yard does one or two tru hull replacements of genuine manufacturers tru hulls each year. The last one was a 35 year old HR.

The yard manager said most get replaced because they are allowed to seize up and the shaft to the ball valve breaks when the owner forces the valve. Nothing to do with Dezincification .

I’ve been to the Beneteau factory , thd HR factory , Amel , Bavaria and Delphia yachts . Certainly in HR and Beneteaus cases both hAd experts on RCD certification and have design specs on all fittings. I spoke at some length to the HR engineer who showed me around the CAD system.

These plans and specs are never released to tonnage surveyors. They are company confidential documents.

Certainly HR were extremely cognisant of the RCD specs. It’s quite a burden engineering a boat to meet these specs and costs HR about 100,000 in the process to have the “ test boat” so setup and the documentation prepared and then the inspection and certification process. There are also production quality standards as part of this and records must be maintained. Anytime they change a part they can risk recertification if it constitutes a major mod.

Beneteau was a more general visit. They have considerable in group engineering and NA expertise. That’s for sure. I didn’t get to see their CAD system but they have comprehensive records and fully comply with RCD standards.

These companies are world leaders and dominate their respective markets. They are not messing around.

Amels visit was interesting and Bavaria’s was work related

( I was involved in industrial robots and we pitched to several big builders )

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

A tonnage survey on a leisure yacht consists of about two measurements , I’ve done several uk tonnage measurements.

Then you have never done a complete tonnage survey using the 8 stages and Simpsons rule. I am a Transport Canada Appointed and IMO recognised Tonnage Measurer, my work has included commercial vessels and Open 60's.
A different kettle of fish.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

And nothing from Beneteau can be got for $ 28. Where are you getting this stuff

https://www.firstforvalves.co.uk/339...ds-iso-71-blue

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Then you have never done a complete tonnage survey using the 8 stages and Simpsons rule. I am a Transport Canada Appointed and IMO recognised Tonnage measurer, my work has included commercial vessels and Open 60's.
A different kettle of fish.

None of this has any bearing on tru hulls or leisure yachts. I’ve done the measurements for three major European registries that last one being thd extremely fastidious Irish one. ( the department of the marine survey office are a right bunch )

Leisure tonnage these days are all based on simplified measurements and computed nett figures. There’s no need for NA specs , a man with a measuring tape is all you need.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

None of this has any bearing on tru hulls or leisure yachts. I’ve done the measurements for three major European registries that last one being thd extremely fastidious Irish one. ( the department of the marine survey office are a right bunch )

Leisure tonnage these days are all based on simplified measurements and computed nett figures. There’s no need for NA specs , a man with a measuring tape is all you need.

Sorry, you are wrong
In Canada ( and some south American countries) all monohulls over 15m and all cats with cabin/structure volume must undergo a Part 3 Tonnage measurement.

I have done many such surveys from plans from Lagoon, Beneteau and Jeanneau prior to production for vessels to be registered in Canada ... along with several other countries.

Now some rules have been simplified in the last few years such as no longer having to calculate the tonnage block coefficiency but its still a helluva lot more than 2 sheets of paper. My measurements add up to about 14 sheets plus drawings.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Sorry, you are wrong

In Canada all monohulls over 15m and all cats with cabin/structure volume must undergo a Part 3 Tonnage measurement.



I have done many such surveys from plans from Lagoon, Beneteau and Jeanneau prior to production for vessels to be registered in Canada ... along with several other countries.

I’m well aware of thd over 15 metre situation and where it pertains. In many countries that requires RINA , Lloyds or DasNorse certified surveyors.

But again this has nothing to do with tru hulls. I’ve seen the plans supplied to a Lloyds surveyor , they were manufacturers drawings specifically drawn up for such requests.

[tsenator]

Originally Posted by Jammer

Actual practice on most boats built in the last 30 years, for thru-hulls, is to install a straight-threaded thruhull with a locknut inside, and then attach a ball valve, or maybe a street elbow and a ball valve, and then a hose barb and so on. This has been the case with boats I have looked at made by Tartan, Catalina, Hunter, Morgan.

Jammer you ABSOLUTELY INCORRECT when it comes to at least Catalina when it comes to their ThruHulls/SeaCocks- for almost the last 30 years !!

Since at least the mid '90's Catalina has been putting in Forespar Marelon true flanged based SeaCocks with *Proper* backing plates (not just on the skin of the hull - Backing plates are solid material about 3/4" thick made of some thing that wont rot) I had a late '90's C36 and never had one single problem with the "Factory Grade" (bigger more solid handle) Forespar Seacocks in over 20 years ! (NOT A SINGLE BALL VALVE ON THAT BOAT).

Maybe you are mistaken with Jeanneau or Beneteau which DO just use a thru hull "pipe" with just a nut (with NO BACKINGPLATE) and cheap ball which they recommend you replace every few years because they are so cheap... went to the Annapolis Boat show last fall and they are STILL using this cheap set up even in their most expensive 50 + foot boats ! (which is insane)

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by tsenator

Jammer you ABSOLUTELY INCORRECT when it comes to at least Catalina when it comes to their ThruHulls/SeaCocks- for almost the last 30 years !!

Since at least the mid '90's Catalina has been putting in Forespar Marelon true flanged based SeaCocks with *Proper* backing plates (not just on the skin of the hull - Backing plates are solid material about 3/4" thick made of some thing that wont rot) I had a late '90's C36 and never had one single problem with the "Factory Grade" (bigger more solid handle) Forespar Seacocks in over 20 years ! (NOT A SINGLE BALL VALVE ON THAT BOAT).

Maybe you are mistaken with Jeanneau or Beneteau which DO just use a thru hull "pipe" with just a nut (with NO BACKINGPLATE) and cheap ball which they recommend you replace every few years because they are so cheap... went to the Annapolis Boat show last fall and they are STILL using this cheap set up even in their most expensive 50 + foot boats ! (which is insane)

It’s just US Beneteaus. No one cares as you have no legal standards anyway.

As it happens I just stepped of my friends European built Beneteau 50 cruiser. All were properly coloured CR fittings as far as I could see ( toilet fittings as I was looking at his electric toilet install )

Yes standard European mushroom fittings with the nut screwed to the grp and sealent.

His were 12 years old. Looked fine.

Only Beneteau USA ever released that nonsense letter. Nothing similar has ever been seen in Europe to my knowledge. From my understanding Beneteau USA wired 110vac boats to ABYC standards and this is an abomination as it encourages seawater fittings degradation

The method you describe as “ cheap “ is used by all major European boat builders some of whom their products are a lot older then you and still happily afloat. I’ll take HRs reasoning over yours if you don’t mind.

In Europe plastic fittings must pass the same RCD ( ISO ) standards as they pertain to plastic fittings underwater , some insurers were known to have certain issues but I’m speaking to a guy who broke a seized ball valve on his Beneteau CC and is intending to fit plastic. I’ll be interested if he informs his insurers.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I’m well aware of thd over 15 metre situation and where it pertains. In many countries that requires RINA , Lloyds or DasNorse certified surveyors.

But again this has nothing to do with tru hulls. I’ve seen the plans supplied to a Lloyds surveyor , they were manufacturers drawings specifically drawn up for such requests.

It has become pointless to correct you.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by tsenator

Jammer you ABSOLUTELY INCORRECT when it comes to at least Catalina when it comes to their ThruHulls/SeaCocks- for almost the last 30 years !!

Since at least the mid '90's Catalina has been putting in Forespar Marelon true flanged based SeaCocks with *Proper* backing plates (not just on the skin of the hull - Backing plates are solid material about 3/4" thick made of some thing that wont rot) I had a late '90's C36 and never had one single problem with the "Factory Grade" (bigger more solid handle) Forespar Seacocks in over 20 years ! (NOT A SINGLE BALL VALVE ON THAT BOAT).

Maybe you are mistaken with Jeanneau or Beneteau which DO just use a thru hull "pipe" with just a nut (with NO BACKINGPLATE) and cheap ball which they recommend you replace every few years because they are so cheap... went to the Annapolis Boat show last fall and they are STILL using this cheap set up even in their most expensive 50 + foot boats ! (which is insane)

I agree. I just went through my files and cannot find a Catalina without proper Marelon throughulls (photo below re c 36 report). I never take photos of real seacocks, only those with issues such as the Euro high volume builders and I have hundreds of those photos, none marked DZR or CR.

[goboatingnow]

I’m not arguing high end expensive bronze flanged isn’t brilliant ( mastrini are even better then groco which isn’t truely bronze anyway and not as good , but these are €450a pop) what I saying is thd current European approach built to ISO 9093 is more then adequate and will have decade or much more of service life. Most fail for other reasons not de zinc

[tsenator]

Ok -- Did a little more research -- It was 1993, so 30 years, that Catalina did a "proper Seacock with flange" installation on their boats --

"Fast forward another decade to late 1993. Another improvement to the through hull and valve design became available and was implemented by Catalina Yachts.

The newest design consists of a seacock that incorporates a large diameter buttressed flange directly onto the base of the valve body. The through hull screws directly into this large flange. It eliminates the flange nut and places the flange directly against the hull and backing block. It prevents a moment or force from making it to the portion that passes through the hull, the weakest link. "

https://www.catalinadirect.com/through-hull-evolution/

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Yet some guy who visits a boat show is right

Yeah sure.

So over 5000 surveys and court recognised expert opinions don't count ?
It's been years since I went to a boat show.

PS. I don't jsut slam EU mass producers, there are many areas where I slam US producers but those issue are not under discussion here.

[goboatingnow]

Hasn’t there been several problems with the plastic handles breaking off. I know one such incident.