The cult of the Proper Flanged Thru-hull

[tsenator]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Leaving aside cruiserforum as it’s not a non English representable forum"

LOL -- So basically you are discounting the HUNDREDS upon HUNDREDS of people on the internet that are complaining about them because you can't figure it out and just relying on your small bubble of people within the 1000 meter radius of your boatyard ..... LOL

There are literally hundreds of photo's of the crappy metal valves people have taken off. I have them too . That doesn't even count the overwhelming number of people that haven't the time or care to post their issues on the internet .

Just the FACT that it has been so bad that the President of Beneteau had to go to such an extreme that he had to PUBLICALLY address the issue makes you just blow that off and discount it too ! LOL

That's funny LOL You are so biased with your head in the sand its laughable

Go ahead - don't look & ignore everything in front of you ... LOL

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Bowdrie

. . . I just wish that they, (or someone else,) would make a real tapered plug bronze valve that would screw on to the adaptor.
Like a real seacock without the flange.. .

Well, to each his own. I had Spartan cone type sea cocks on my last boat. They were pretty, but were fussy and required annual maintenance, and they drip if you don't adjust them just right. Bah! Personally I prefer quality bronze ball valves. If you exercise them regularly (and you really should), they don't seize, and even if you were to break a shaft or handle -- what's the big deal? Just careen the boat or wait for the next haul out and pop it off and replace it. If you use it so rarely that it seizes and you break it, then it's not likely to be critical for you to be able to open it (or close it).

Originally Posted by Bowdrie

. . .When I win the Lottery, I shall start a company that makes real seacocks like the ones by Spartan, as well as ones that can be used on the Groco adaptor. . . .

I'd probably go broke, just too many bean counters.
Like the old adage. "How do you make a small fortune in the marine business?"
Answer, "You start out with a large fortune". . . .

Ain't that the truth.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by tsenator

LOL -- So basically you are discounting the HUNDREDS upon HUNDREDS of people on the internet that are complaining about them because you can't figure it out and just relying on your small bubble of people within the 1000 meter radius of your boatyard ..... LOL



There are literally hundreds of photo's of the crappy metal valves people have taken off. I have them too . That doesn't even count the overwhelming number of people that haven't the time or care to post their issues on the internet .



Just the FACT that it has been so bad that the President of Beneteau had to go to such an extreme that he had to PUBLICALLY address the issue makes you just blow that off and discount it too ! LOL



That's funny LOL You are so biased with your head in the sand its laughable



Go ahead - don't look & ignore everything in front of you ... LOL

No one has shown “ hundreds “

The Beneteau statement referred to was by Beneteau USA and related to US product. I can’t say if ABYC wiring was followed of it was I’d expect the fittings to degrade much faster then European. Beneteau HQ has never issued that statement.

I’d say there’s more Euro boats in Greece alone then all of America. Yards are not full of boats chopping out sea cocks due to de zincificstion

It’s simply not a systemic problem even if 100 out of literally 10000s are changing fittings.

I have my eyes fully open and I’m in a place chock full of euro boats. ( and currently chock full of brits trying to buy them ) I suggest you are not.

AGAIN , I m not arguing they are the same quality as bronze flanged groco ( which is a form of brass) I’m merely arguing they are “ good enough “ and are lasting well over 10 years or more.

[Bowdrie]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

No need the best seacocks are made by maestrini in Italy

They are not even close to "best", more like 2nd, or even 3rd rate.
Just a flanged ball valve with a plastic ball.

[tsenator]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

And yes ABYC AC/DC and metals bonding is a disaster in grp boats and is designed to place safety and weakness in the NEC above underwater fitting life.ABYC only discovered RCD protection recently yet these devices have been on European boats for three decades.

PS -- My boat, and dozens of my friends Benneteau/Jenneau boats I have ever seen DID NOT HAVE THRU HULLS BONDED. LOL So you can't use that excuse LOL

In fact They don't even build to ABYC standards in many cases

Some pics from a Jeanneau Owner - no bonding

BTW - https://jeanneau-owners.com/hintsandtips/thruhulls.html

So that was an Epic Fail -- Try another excuse LOL

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Bowdrie

They are not even close to "best", more like 2nd, or even 3rd rate.

Just a flanged ball valve with a plastic ball.

They are the best well better then brass groco and pass the very high RINA standards.

The plastic ball is a significant improvement. They do still offer a metal ball version but are moving to all plastic ball versions. ( so are all seawater ball valves from several manufacturers )

I’ll chat to then again at METS ( groco are there too usually )

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Bowdrie

They are not even close to "best", more like 2nd, or even 3rd rate.
Just a flanged ball valve with a plastic ball.

Have you ever even seen a Maestrini ball valve?


Maestrini is a serious company with large engineering resources, halls full of CnC machines, a different kind of shop than Spartan or Groco which are much more artisanal operations. They do extraordinary quality control on an individual piece basis, have RINI certifications, etc.

What is "best" is always a matter of opinion, but Maestrini is what is used by all of the best yacht builders in this part of the world. It's what you get when you buy a multi-million dollar Swan. If not "best" then certainly first rate.

And by the way, you have a choice of ball material with Maestrini ball valves -- bronze or plastic. The model with the plastic ball, called "Vittoria", is more expensive, but is supposed to be smoother acting and immune to seizing. That's what was recommended to me, and what I chose when I replaced mine.


bilge jewelry

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

AGAIN , I m not arguing they are the same quality as bronze flanged groco ( which is a form of brass) I’m merely arguing they are “ good enough “ and are lasting well over 10 years or more.

Groco = 7% zinc
Euro CR - 34% zinc


A significant difference

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Have you ever even seen a Maestrini ball valve?


Maestrini is a serious company with large engineering resources, a different kind of shop than Spartan or Groco which are much more artisanal operations. They do extraordinary quality control on an individual piece basis, have RINI certifications, etc.



What is "best" is always a matter of opinion, but Maestrini is what is used by all of the best yacht builders in this part of the world. It's what you get when you buy a multi-million dollar Swan. If not "best" then certainly first rate.


And by the way, you have a choice of ball material with Maestrini ball valves -- bronze or plastic. The model with the plastic ball, called "Vittoria", is more expensive, but is supposed to be smoother acting and immune to seizing. That's what was recommended to me, and what I chose when I replaced mine.


Attachment 264464
bilge jewelry

Dockhead , we’re fighting a US cult. It’s too late they are lost to reason [emoji5]

I’ve met them ( maestrini at METS ) great engineering

( by the way funny the worlds largest marine equipment show is in Europe , funny that , big US pavilion of course , Italys one is huge of course as it’s a worldwide marine equipment supplier )

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I can’t say if ABYC wiring was followed of it was I’d expect the fittings to degrade much faster then European. Beneteau HQ has never issued that statement. .

Well I can say ... thousands of surveys and I've never seen a single bonded sailboat regardless of where made.

The only bonded boats I see are Taiwan power boats and a couple of US powerboat manufacturers

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Well I can say ... thousands of surveys and I've never seen a single bonded sailboat regardless of where made.

The only bonded boats I see are Taiwan power boats and a couple of US powerboat manufacturers

Shock. You mean US sailboats don’t follow ABYC standards. Well that’s good to know.

Funnily the passport yacht I viewed in Miami was all bonded.( nearly bought it to )

[tsenator]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

.... I m not arguing they are the same quality as bronze flanged groco ( which is a form of brass) I’m merely arguing they are “ good enough “ and are lasting well over 10 years or more.

LOL So now you are at least admitting that the hardware on these Benny/Jenny's are the lowest possible/passable to put on a boat and "should" (emphasis "should") make it 10 years LOL

Yeah sure I think if theses boats are 5 years old you should be fine, but there are plenty of people I know where they started looking extremely suspect within just 10 years -

Here is ANOTHER EXAMPLE - one just 5 year old Jenneau already looking questionable with pink metal starting -- https://jeanneau.proboards.com/threa...hull-corrosion

Just admit they use the absolutely lowest quality thru hull's and valve metals possible to get by.

For christ sakes people are spending $400,000 , $500,000 ...... $700,000 (?) for these boats !! You'd think they would spend another $500 and put in QUALITY Seacocks & Metals !

As ANOTHER example (and yes there are HUNDREDS) Here on the left is a VERY LOW QUALITY hose bib off of a Jeanneau its thin and cheap - now compare to a quality Bronze Hose bib just a few dollars more but its quality is night and day.

I could go on and on with page and pages and pages of proof of how cheap their underwater metals have been that they have put on their boats

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Shock. You mean US sailboats don’t follow ABYC standards. Well that’s good to know.

Funnily the passport yacht I viewed in Miami was all bonded.( nearly bought it to )

I've only surveyed one Passport (it was not bonded) so I can't say much about that.

I have already admitted that US boatbuilders are slam worthy ... in this article from 2006 I slam US and Taiwan and Euro builders

I'm gonna re do this article one day as I have several thousand more photos now that are even worse

Stoopid boat builder tricks

[RaymondR]

Decades ago in a former life before I became a scruffy old yachty I was put in charge of commissioning and operating a new jackup drill rig in an Asian country.

A couple of months after commencing operations we began to experience tube failures in the heat exchangers of the main power generators. In response we sent tube extractors, tube, and forming tools to the rig to execute repairs. On reporting the failures to the local agent for the engine manufacturer we were informed that warranty would not apply as the engines had been run in an industrial area where the sea water was heavily contaminated.

Now this sort of indifferent response to a warranty claim really pi***s me off so I sent a couple of my young engineers down to the technical library to research heat exchangers with a particular emphasis on the metallurgy of the tubes. A few days later they came back with mountains of information including a full metallurgical breakdown of almost everything on cuprous metals going back to the stone age.

Having had some of the tubes section and inspected we decided that the most likely suspect for the problem was a phenomenon called dezincification of brass wherein nodules of zinc within the brass electrochemically erodes and that this was the most probable process for the formation of the holes in the tubes. However, how to prove this.

After a fair bit of pondering and discussion we decided to cut a section of the tube into ¼” pieces and have each piece metallurgically analysed to see how well the zinc was distributed. Eurika, some of the samples had almost no zinc and some two or three times the specified amount for the metals specifications.

We weren’t messing about with local agents now and went straight to the president of the manufacturer with the results of our investigation. About a week later we received a fax back from the president informing us that eight new heat exchangers were on their way along with an installation crew, apologising profusely for the former response of the local agent and thanking us for bringing the matter to his attention.

The moral of the story is twofold:

Firstly, the combination of a cunning old roughneck with about twenty five years of experience acquired judgement and a couple of formally educated engineers with good theoretical bases of knowledge and research skills was deadly.

And, the second, that even experienced manufacturers with a reputation of being one of the best in their fields can get caught occasionally with cuprous alloys.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

I've only surveyed one Passport (it was not bonded) so I can't say much about that.

I have already admitted that US boatbuilders are slam worthy ... in this article from 2006 I slam US and Taiwan and Euro builders

I'm gonna re do this article one day as I have several thousand more photos now that are even worse

Stoopid boat builder tricks

That article of yours is a great public service


The gas installations are a horror show!!


Please do update it!