Toilet Engineering

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

What part of that do you disagree with?

All of it. No one claims that these are actual composting heads ("Desiccating Head" is the oft-used correction). The ick-rant is overblown and opinion-based, not fact-based. I respect that some folks aren't comfortable with compost heads. But when that gets turns hyperbolic vitriol, well, makes me wonder if there was trauma during potty-training.

You're entitled to your opinion, I just wish you'd state it once, maybe twice, certainly no more than a dozen times and leave it at that instead of barging into threads.

Peter

[peghall]

Oh goodie...the children are having a food fight!



--Peggie

[smj]

Originally Posted by peghall

Oh goodie...the children are having a food fight!



--Peggie

And you just joined the league of “the children”! Congratulations!

[Bill Seal]

If you double wrap your un-dessicated poop in plastic and throw it into a dumpster, which then goes into a landfill, it may never decompose. 2000 years from now an archaeologist digging through ancient landfills may open it up and uneash an ancient plague upon the population.

[Manateeman]

I was going to post about the composition of manatee “biscuits”. Here we have a case of a strict vegetarian diet in a mammal. Their digestive system is similar to the hind gut fermentation process found in horses but very unlike the reprocessing (via a chewing a cud ...cows) one finds in ruminant animals.
Manatees consume 10 to 15 percent of their body weight every day. Their digestive track can measure 150 feet. They don’t need a dentist as replacement teeth move forward in their jaw as old molars wear down.
Now let’s consider a comparison of how our waste products differ from manatees.
To begin with, our diets are substantially different (even if you are a vegetarian and human because you are not a hind gut animal. OK. We both start out on mom’s milk. Very quickly, microbes become part of the process and form very different microbial communities. One may think...well we both produce gas, so how different can we be from manatees. The trail of manatee bubbles will tell you that you don’t need an anatomy book to see the differences. So why all the fuss over human “products”. There are two keys. First...transit time. The time in the system. Mom told you to chew your food, don’t inhale it. Sound advice. Manatees not only chew well but have a very long system.
The second key is simple. Digestion and bioavailability.
Inside us and manatees, a community of microbes eats what we feed them. Manatees have some unique digestive structures.Special Submucosal glands, unkeratinized stratified squamous epithelial cells. A Digestive tools kit ..well, large like them. So what does this mean. They can extract a lot of energy from poor quality food. And...most importantly...their microbial community increases their immune system strength. Nitric oxide production might play an important role.
Manatee “biscuits” contain far fewer “toxic” microbes than humans. Some of the bad microbes that kill humans also kill manatees for example Salmonella. But you don’t usually find E.Coli, pseudomonas or staphylococcus in manatee biscuits.
Manatees have an excellent immune system. Think of the huge cuts they get from propellers and the toxic microbial frappe they swim in. We wouldn’t last long. We pass through us a much more complex and potentially dangerous assortment of microbes.
So into the dry compost pile. Well it sounds good. The heat will kill the bad guys.
If not, they will die of thirst. Let’s take heat first. Generally, 131 degrees F. But, there is a time requirement. Three consecutive days at that temp.
Die of thirst. Microbes are so wonderfully prepared. Like turtles, they hide in their almost bomb proof homes till they think it’s time to kill you.
The smaller the system, the more likely it will fail. All you are doing then, is holding, transporting and disposing a pathogenic bomb in a plastic bag.
Let us then learn from our marine mammal friends. Eat more vegetables, chew your food well and don’t pass gas or your waste products along to others.
If you ask for a “take out lunch”... please request a paper, not a plastic, bag.
My manatee crew thank you for you kind attention.
Happy trails to you.
Captain Mark and his pizza loving manatee crew.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by smj

What you do offends me and probably most other responsible boaters.
But please stay mounted on your high horse looking down upon us lowly creatures.

So now you’re a VICTIM of me supposedly looking down on you when I don’t feel that way at all. I just don’t like the idea of people throwing fresh poop into a trash bin and pretending it’s harmless, fully desiccated material, and then expecting the rest of us to pretend we don’t know what’s really in that bag or wrapping.

[MicHughV]

aiesh....I can commiserate.

I have taken countless toilets apart over the years, pretty much every make and model.

Like Dockhead, I've found that I've often had to assemble and then re-assemble the thing several times, especially the electric one's. There seems to be no logical explanation for this. I do everything as per instructions, new re-build kits, etc, and it still leaks or malfunctions in some or other way.

It's a complicated device, most often situated below the waterline, and most certainly has a mind of it's own. It can be cranky, friendly or downright obstinate.

On my 2nd boat, I had electrosan units. One night, around midnight (these things always happen at midnight, when my boat gremlin is running around), the forward unit "exploded"...yes..."exploded. We are all familiar with the expression "when the s--t hits the fan".....well, that is exactly what the aftermath looked like. The actual unit resided under the forward v-berth. The mess was horrific and was everywhere. There wasn't a square inch of the v-berth area left unsoiled.

Getting it all cleaned up was a nightmare.....worse then a nightmare.

For my money, nothing beats the " DIY" models...

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by smj

Rides a high horse and knows big words, my you must be so proud of yourself.

We can disagree and I know that can sometimes be frustrating when someone doesn’t see it your way, but let’s try to at least stick to the subject at hand rather than engaging in personal attacks and sarcasm.

BTW, what big words are you referring to? I’m honestly confused by that one.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

All of it. No one claims that these are actual composting heads ("Desiccating Head" is the oft-used correction). The ick-rant is overblown and opinion-based, not fact-based. I respect that some folks aren't comfortable with compost heads. But when that gets turns hyperbolic vitriol, well, makes me wonder if there was trauma during potty-training.



You're entitled to your opinion, I just wish you'd state it once, maybe twice, certainly no more than a dozen times and leave it at that instead of barging into threads.



Peter

I don’t think mentioning the word icky or yucky once in a post quite qualifies as a rant and I haven’t used any hyperbole, just quoted how the manufacturer says they should be dumped and how long it takes to make raw human waste harmless in air. I didn’t make it up or even exaggerate. I quoted the information just as it’s printed by those who manufacture these heads. Though it seems some vitriol has been directed at me, I haven’t said anything bad about anyone, just disagreed with someone suggesting that what comes out of their head after regular use is mostly desiccated with just a few flecks of raw poop. And in doing that I wasn’t just expressing my opinion but instead quoted what the manufacturer says about what you are disposing of after regular use. Then, I didn’t suggest they should be made illegal but instead pointed out 2 other options for disposing of the stuff, throwing it overboard at sea or having an extra container on board to allow the waste to be fully composted before dumping it in a trash bin or dumpster.

I think some people think we should probably just shut up and humor the few individuals who choose to put these types of heads in their boats and dispose of raw, uncomposted waste this way and honestly I haven’t noticed them being a problem where my boat is so maybe that approach would be ok. But the claim has been made that these heads are becoming much more popular and if that’s true I think that increases the chances of sloppy packaging leading to a pretty disgusting mess or even a health hazard in a marina near you. I don’t think people should pump directly overboard within the confines of a harbor even if it’s dark and nobody is looking, and I don’t think people should dump uncomposted human waste in trash bins even if nobody can tell what’s inside. I’m surprised that you would find either position to be controversial.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

aiesh....I can commiserate.



I have taken countless toilets apart over the years, pretty much every make and model.



Like Dockhead, I've found that I've often had to assemble and then re-assemble the thing several times, especially the electric one's. There seems to be no logical explanation for this. I do everything as per instructions, new re-build kits, etc, and it still leaks or malfunctions in some or other way.



It's a complicated device, most often situated below the waterline, and most certainly has a mind of it's own. It can be cranky, friendly or downright obstinate.



On my 2nd boat, I had electrosan units. One night, around midnight (these things always happen at midnight, when my boat gremlin is running around), the forward unit "exploded"...yes..."exploded. We are all familiar with the expression "when the s--t hits the fan".....well, that is exactly what the aftermath looked like. The actual unit resided under the forward v-berth. The mess was horrific and was everywhere. There wasn't a square inch of the v-berth area left unsoiled.



Getting it all cleaned up was a nightmare.....worse then a nightmare.



For my money, nothing beats the " DIY" models...

Did you ever learn or figure out just what caused the explosion? Was it methane that ignited or was it a mechanical or electrical thing? When you say the whole v berth area was soiled does that mean it blew the cabinetry and cushions upward or was the mess restricted to the area beneath the mattresses? In either case, I’ve never heard of anything like that!

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

I spent half a day swearing at a Raritan Elegance. It was not designed with maintenance in mind. When I finally got it apart, the culprit was long hair in the macerator. Its far worse than toilet paper, and some women are trained to brush their hair two or three times a day and put the loose stiff down the toilet. I think I had to use silicon to stop the leaks when I reassembled it.

My toilet philosophy these days is to get the cheapest Jabsco manual, plus a spare pump assembly, for less than a third the cost of the Elegance. With regular doses of vinegar you can get by for about 2 years between maintenance.

Interesting- I have had an elegance for 7 years and it’s been flawless. But my wife knows the strict drill regarding hair.
Yes the concealed porcelain design definitely makes the pump tougher to get to but it’s all hose clamps holding parts together once you lift it up which seems pretty easy to me
Cheap with spares isn’t bad either I guess

Regarding smell- my holding tank and hoses under v berth finally started smelling last season. I replaced everything, hoses , clamps, 33 year old holding tank. Got rid of the Y valve.
Used a PVC standpipe instead of hose for the outlet. Reduced hose size to 1 inch given the elegance macerates everything. Made all hose clamps accessible so hoses can be easily replace
It’s a freshwater flush. No smell anywhere not even under v berth. You just have to replace hoses on a schedule at the first whiff

[MicHughV]

jtsailjt,

That's a good question, I tried, but no, I never did find out what caused the problem.
The v-berth cabin was a mess, it didn't blow the cabinetry apart, but did lift the v-berth cushions and the plywood support underneath.

The boat was around 10 years old when I bought it, and the previous owner was obsessive with maintenance. I had the boat for around a year before this event.

Looking at the ruined unit, I had to surmise some kind of methane explosion blew the one upper corner apart. How or why, I could not say. The boat had two heads, but the aft head head was the one most used. That one was not equipped with any unit.

Like you, I have never heard of this type of malfunction before. I can't say I've come across other boats fitted with this unit, so was never able to ask others about their experience.

I sold that boat some years ago, but can still recall the instance.

[Chotu]

Marine Elegance :


Good lord I hated these things.

We had to keep a knife handy in the head to self-macerate your own manatee biscuits.

Right on topic, who engineers a 2” hole at the bottom of the bowl with a 90 DEGREE TURN in it before the macerator chamber??? Talk about some bad engineering!!

You’d press the flush button and everything would start draining, then your log would go in the hole and stand straight up as all the water drained out from around it. Dumbest piece of engineering in history. Worst head in history.

Literally had to go in the bowl and self-macerate so things were cut up small enough to go around a 90 degree turn in a 2” pipe. Bad engineering doesn’t even begin to describe it.

Originally Posted by malbert73

Interesting- I have had an elegance for 7 years and it’s been flawless. But my wife knows the strict drill regarding hair.
Yes the concealed porcelain design definitely makes the pump tougher to get to but it’s all hose clamps holding parts together once you lift it up which seems pretty easy to me
Cheap with spares isn’t bad either I guess

Regarding smell- my holding tank and hoses under v berth finally started smelling last season. I replaced everything, hoses , clamps, 33 year old holding tank. Got rid of the Y valve.
Used a PVC standpipe instead of hose for the outlet. Reduced hose size to 1 inch given the elegance macerates everything. Made all hose clamps accessible so hoses can be easily replace
It’s a freshwater flush. No smell anywhere not even under v berth. You just have to replace hoses on a schedule at the first whiff

[malbert73]

Fair enough- not for you. That’s really interesting- my family of 4 must have different stools than you[emoji3]
But pretty much every marine head except for the Skipper has a 90 degree turn at bottom of the bowl leading to the pump, right?

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by malbert73

Fair enough- not for you. That’s really interesting- my family of 4 must have different stools than you[emoji3]
But pretty much every marine head except for the Skipper has a 90 degree turn at bottom of the bowl leading to the pump, right?

I think you’re right about them all having a turn. But the cheap Jabsco manual head creates one heck of a suction when you pump it and that somehow breaks/bends the log around the corner. The Marine Elegance doesn’t pull nearly as hard so the poo log is left upright in the bottom of the bowl, before the 90 degree turn.

I’m talking about well formed, single logs here. Not diarrhea or rabbit pellets. Healthy proper logs.