Washing machines, graywater, energy

[Bill O]

Originally Posted by SV Bacchus

An in-between alternative that may work for some. Our buddy boat still washes by hand in a bucket. But due to age and/or lack or strength in hands/arms for whatever reasons, they have a spinner. The spinner is just a high speed ringer which really get the water out of the clothes. When hung up they dry in about 1/2 the time.

I believe it is a 110V machine and they run a little Honda genset when they do laundry.

Just an option..

Similarly we use a bucket, a manual clothes agitator and a high speed spin "dryer". Typical load uses 4 gal. of water.
We use our 3200 rpm spin dryer to get more soap and dirt out of the clothes so the wash is more efficient. The typical wash machine spin cycle is between 800-1200 rpm and leaves dirt and soap behind in the clothes.(we actually did test this w/a land based wash machine and we could still spin soapy water out of the clothes after it was it was finished).

I know most people want a wash machine, but here is a link for more info on our research on the spin drier. (we now have the blue agitator).

Even though we also cook things from scratch, we don't have a dish washer. We just learned to be better about not blowing up the galley when we cook.


Bill O.

[Chotu]

What are some larger washer/dryer combo machines that are vented? I just found a ton of space for one.

Space requires a front loading model.

[Lepke]

I've got a powerboat and have a washer, dryer and dishwasher. I can run the washer or dishwasher off the inverter, but usually time it to when a generator is running. Seems to work ok in the ocean. When my current washer fails, I plan on buying a vented Splendie combo.
A watermaker makes life much better. Check out Cruise RO Water & Power: Watermakers for Boats & Yachts
It all doesn't have to be in one spot.
I have a private dock and don't stay at marinas, so grey water isn't an issue. Marinas that cater to commercial fishing are less picky than ones the cater to yachts.

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by Sojourner

You're quite welcome! 49kg huh... Here's the size vis a vis a chubby cat...

Ok! Now I see that it's really quite small Cool cat! Reminds me of my childhood

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by mikedefieslife

Just installed a Daewoo Mini MKII model (16.5kg). It uses 100w when not heating water (which you don't need to in warm climates), and uses 30l for a normal 30min wash. I have a watermaker on board.

Ok! So, running from the batteries, this would be 100W * 0.5h = 500Wh of 220V "inverted" power? And adding 20% inversion loss it would be about 50Ah of 12V power?

As far as energy goes, this would basically match "normal" machines with 110 kWh yearly consumption (I think yearly is counted as x 220 cycles), so less than half of the A+++ rated consumption. Nice!

I'm not sure why you would worry about grey water any more than if you were using a bucket. Try to use environmentally friendly soaps all round.

I think the culture over here (the Baltic Sea) has groomed me and other people to be very sensitive about anything "foreign" that is let out into the sea. And this is so especially in marinas, where other people can see what you are doing. (Kind of like this: https://www.sailorsforthesea.org/pro...uide/graywater)

Getting into a marina, it would be really nice to use your own shower, your own washing machine, but over here, I'm sure we'd get a lot of angry looks for doing so. (We have used the shower, though, but I get nervous )

For the graywater, some kind of holding tank could be the solution. The stuff could be discharged later, somewhere further out and away.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

For the graywater, some kind of holding tank could be the solution.

I see what you did there

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by Juho

I'd be interested in a graywater tank, although in many places it is not needed. In small marinas and some natural harbours I would prefer to keep the water in for a while. An empty tank (or bladder?) would not add too much weight even in a light catamaran.

I'd like to have a separate pump straight out to the sea, or to a graywater tank. I.e. preferably not via the bilge because I don't want any dirt and hair in the bilge (since one day the bilge pump might get blocked).

Yes, this would be perfect!

Regular washing machines are quite heavy (to keep them steady). I wonder if they make models that rely on permanent installation rather than weight. The boat would act as the stabilising weight.

That's a great point and a maybe cool 'tuning' project for someone who dares to try

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by john61ct

I see what you did there

Oh no!

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

. . . I think the culture over here (the Baltic Sea) has groomed me and other people to be very sensitive about anything "foreign" that is let out into the sea. And this is so especially in marinas, where other people can see what you are doing. (Kind of like this: https://www.sailorsforthesea.org/pro...uide/graywater)

Getting into a marina, it would be really nice to use your own shower, your own washing machine, but over here, I'm sure we'd get a lot of angry looks for doing so. (We have used the shower, though, but I get nervous )

For the graywater, some kind of holding tank could be the solution. The stuff could be discharged later, somewhere further out and away.

For sure, the Northern Baltic is a sensitive place -- many harbours have saunas and people swim in the actual harbour after sauna -- something people don't do in harbours in other places. For sure we use our black water holding tank.


But I don't think washing machine discharge is really an issue PROVIDED you use low sudsing ecological detergent like Ecover. I've not noticed any "angry looks" in 5 years of cruising all over the Northern Baltic Sea.

The exception being the little harbours on yacht club private islands in Finland, which specifically forbid any kind of gray water discharge, so you have to use the shore facilities.


And obviously use discretion, and don't wash clothes when you think it could bother someone. It's a lot easier to put off laundry for a few hours or day, than it is to put off a shower or washing dishes after a meal.



Gray water holding tanks do exist but they are hard to accomodate and are a pain to maintain -- notoriously nasty, hard to clean. I have small gray water tanks on my boat, the annual cleaning of which is one of the most dreaded and horribly vomit-inducing jobs on board. Gray water tanks would need to be nearly the size of your fresh water tanks to be of much use. Not really a practical solution, in my opinion.

[mglonnro]

I'm inserting a collective Thank You here, to all of you who have offered your insights!

Before this I had read just a couple of negative opinions about having washing machines aboard ("never used it", "too much energy" etc). I was not looking forward to having that discussion with my wife, so you all made our lives much easier!

To sum it up:

- Energy consumption roughly from 50 Ah up per cycle.
- Water consumption roughly from 25l up per cycle
- Always use ecological detergent
- Graywater might or might not be a problem
- There is a "spin dryer" alternative solution.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

I'm inserting a collective Thank You here, to all of you who have offered your insights!

Before this I had read just a couple of negative opinions about having washing machines aboard ("never used it", "too much energy" etc). I was not looking forward to having that discussion with my wife, so you all made our lives much easier!

To sum it up:

- Energy consumption roughly from 50 Ah up per cycle.
- Water consumption roughly from 25l up per cycle
- Always use ecological detergent
- Graywater might or might not be a problem
- There is a "spin dryer" alternative solution.

To add a bit:



- 25l per wash is exceptionally little; I think more common is 50-80l per wash. Mine uses 65 I think.


- Don't forget about the dryer. Unless you're sailing in dry sunny weather all the time, the dryer is actually more useful than the washer, as washing clothes can be done in various ways, but in cold, rainy weather you're pretty much screwed with regard to drying. In cold, wet weather you will have constant need for the dryer.



- Some older condensor dryers use fresh water to condense the water from drying, increasing water consumption further. I don't personally think these are suitable for a boat.


-- Laundry spinners are great things (I first experienced them as a student in Germany decades ago) but still don't completely solve the drying problem. And where would you keep it? Even on my 54' boat, I can't quite imagine a place for one of those.


Cheers and good luck.

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

For sure, the Northern Baltic is a sensitive place -- many harbours have saunas and people swim in the actual harbour after sauna -- something people don't do in harbours in other places. For sure we use our black water holding tank.

Yes, and I love the fact that the children can just swim around in our harbours. Last summer we had 26C clear water in the Tallinn/Pirita marina. Quite wonderful.

But I don't think washing machine discharge is really an issue PROVIDED you use low sudsing ecological detergent like Ecover. I've not noticed any "angry looks" in 5 years of cruising all over the Northern Baltic Sea.

The exception being the little harbours on yacht club private islands in Finland, which specifically forbid any kind of gray water discharge, so you have to use the shore facilities.

And obviously use discretion, and don't wash clothes when you think it could bother someone. It's a lot easier to put off laundry for a few hours or day, than it is to put off a shower or washing dishes after a meal.

Yes, I agree.

Gray water holding tanks do exist but they are hard to accomodate and are a pain to maintain -- notoriously nasty, hard to clean. I have small gray water tanks on my boat, the annual cleaning of which is one of the most dreaded and horribly vomit-inducing jobs on board. Gray water tanks would need to be nearly the size of your fresh water tanks to be of much use. Not really a practical solution, in my opinion.

Ah, ok. The cleaning part sounds bad

I checked that the gray water option Hanse offers (for our boat) is 100l, so about 1/3 of the fresh water. But well, we'll see. The machine(s) wouldn't be for this boat, anyway, but for then possible next one.

[Dockhead]

One P.S.:


This is pure theory, of probably no use to anyone, but it would not be hard to design a washer/dryer specifically for boat use, which would recycle the wash water by diverting the condensor water from the dryer back to a day tank for the washing machine. In fact, you could probably modify a standard heat pump dryer to do that. Would considerably reduce water consumption.


I have a heat pump dryer in one of my land homes, and it is a marvelous thing. It uses exceptionally little electrical power and produces little heat. Would be a fantastic thing to have on a boat. Unfortunately does not exist in a very compact combo washer/dryer, as far as I know.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

Yes, and I love the fact that the children can just swim around in our harbours. Last summer we had 26C clear water in the Tallinn/Pirita marina. Quite wonderful.. .

Just one of the many wonderful things about cruising the Northern Baltic, especially Finland. I love it that in Finland even some of the natural harbours have floating, free pump out stations! The culture is the opposite of what we have in the U.S. -- where we have relatively little infrastructure and harsh enforcement (the dreaded Toilet Police), whereas in Sweden and Finland instead of applying harsh enforcement (or any enforcement at all), the infrastructure was built out first, then people are trusted to use it. Wow, that's civilization -- my respect :namaste:

I would not, however, swim in Pirita marina ! The Estonian boats mostly don't have black water holding tanks, and the culture is different! For Tallinn anyway I much prefer Old City Marina, which is more expensive, but is lovely and is right in the center of the city, and with an excellent sauna! But that is thread drift, making me homesick for summer . . .

Originally Posted by mglonnro

. . . I checked that the gray water option Hanse offers (for our boat) is 100l, so about 1/3 of the fresh water. But well, we'll see. The machine(s) wouldn't be for this boat, anyway, but for then possible next one.

You'll want a lot more than 300l of fresh water tankage if you're going to be using a washing machine on board.


For cruising the Baltic Sea, you do not want a water maker. Water maker needs to be used regularly, and you just don't need it in the Baltic where there is a clean fresh water everywhere. So decent tankage is important. We have 1000l which is enough to never worry about it in the Baltic, enough for a week of hanging out in natural harbors.

[Sojourner]

I really hate to continually toot the horn of the cult of amel, but. Since you haven't bought your next boat. Apart from being exceptional boats, Amels not only come with the washer (and dishwasher usually), I believe there could be a way you could use the wet bilge system to hold your graywater. Amels pipe all their graywater to a common deep bilge in the engine room, where it is pumped out periodically (which doesn't stink because there is a lot of water going in and out of it). If I absolutely didn't want to discharge for a night, I could switch off that pump from my breaker panel and accumulate about 50 liters of graywater in there, pumping it out the next day at sea...

Also would be easily done to install a big holding tank in the engine room, and pipe the discharges into it either directly or through a gulper pump and pipe which you could switch from the main panel. So if graywater is super important to you where you are, and you haven't picked your next boat yet, just a thought