Watermaker Installation

[Barra]

Originally Posted by monte

looks like a cool change coming your way !

Im i reading this right 39 degree max?

[Sulaire]

Hi


Pressure sensor/switch on schenker is mounted just before the 5micron filter housing with an electric cable going to it.

My waremaker also had rising and falling pressure before i adjusted this sensor.

Charlie

[colemj]

No, if it came with the system, then it is installed in the correct place. I thought earlier you said it was something you put in.

The pressure switch is usually located on the pump. It is often covered by a plastic cover held on with small screws. Sometimes it has a screw in the middle of the cover, which is the adjustment screw. The pictures are not very large, but is that it on the top of the pumps?

It does sound like the pressure is set too low and the pumps are not kicking back in until the pressure drops too far.

Do the pumps turn on and off when running? If they are running continuously, then it is not the pressure switch.

Have you tried disconnecting the inlet line from the HP pump and just running the feed pumps to make sure they are pumping correctly?

Mark

[Barra]

Yes pumps run continuously and yes they have good pressure on their own. It seems to me that when the high pressure pump pushes the feed water thu the membranes thats when the pressure suddenly drops 4 bar and then i get the surge of brine discharge. Thats not normal i think?

[monte]

I meant the rain and thunder storms for tonight! still looks hot though..
OK back to the task at hand ...

[Barra]

Im more scared of the 39 degrees holy crap im melting in 34 and humidity right now!

[Tellie]

I've been following this thread from my cabin in NC where I have limited phone Internet. I'm finally down the mountain and in a coffee shop with decent Internet.
First off, and I know it certainly sounds biased coming from me, but I truly believe in this, don't buy Mutant Ninja Turtle Spectra knock offs. The savings are rarely worth it in the long run.
The first isssue with the limited infromation you gave and just two pictures is that I believe you have a plumbing installation issue. It's hard to accurately see how they are plumbed. More detailed pictures and perhaps the installation diagram you are following would help a lot. These pumps have to be plumbed in parallel. If they are plumbed in series then one pump is fighting the other and neither is producing the proper flows and pressures to the hydraulic pump. Each pump should produce between 50-65psi individually and about 90-110psi run together, I'll let you do the metric conversion. It is normal to see the brine discharge surge and drop off. You are using a two cylinder hydraulic amplifying pump in your system. Only one cylinder at a time is creating pressure. When one cylinder creates pressure you see the surge, when the pump instantly shifts to the other cylinder (every 5-8 seconds) the surge drops off until the other cylinder builds pressure. You will see this on your pressure gauge which reads feed pump pressures not membrane pressures. You will see the gauge needle go up and down on one cylinder stroke and the next up and down movement is the next cylinder. The fact that you are getting half the production still leads me to believe that there is more likely a plumbing problem. You should be producing between 7-8gph of product on each pump run individually and about 14gph with both pumps running. The fact that this is a new unit I would probably rule out bad feed pump heads or clogged membranes unless the membranes have sat for a long time un-flushed or pickled. The two feed pumps can be mounted no more than three feet above the waterline which it looks like you have no problems with that on your installation. The brine discharge makes no difference. Also from the pics it looks like your electrical feed may be too small. I like to see each feed pump have it's own circuit protected with a 15amp breaker. Let me know fairly accurately the distance from the electrical supply point to the feed pump terminal and I'll let you know the proper wiring size. You'd be surprised how large these cable can get. All 12V systems are voltage sensitive and it doesn't make a difference that you are reading 12+ Volts at the pumps when it comes to wire sizing. If this doesn't help you can always PM me. I'll be back in town the beginning of next week and will have better Internet service then.

[RaymondR]

All pumps are sensitive to pressure losses on the suction side. If both pump suctions are tee'd into the same suction line and it is not big enough they will both be starved for suction and pump a reduced flow. If you can run each pump singly and measure the output and it is about half the rated output it would tend to indicate whilst the suction size is sufficient for one pump it is not so for both at the same size.

If it is indicated that you have this problem you should plan on a bigger suction side installation when you get around to installing a dedicated raw water supply.

The silver thing is a pulsation dampener. This device cushions the large pressure pulses caused when the intensifier (high pressure pump) changes direction. It is pressure charged with air and the rule of thumb is that when relaxed - no pressure in the rest of the system - is that the pressure in it should be about half the working pressure of the system. It probably will not change the efficiency of the system if it is not working but protects the system from the effects of water hammer.

[RaymondR]

both at the same size

Sorry, should read "both at the same time".

[colemj]

I didn't realize this was an energy recovery type of system. Never mind any advice I gave - I don't know much about those systems.

Mark

[Barra]

Tellie

Was hoping you would jump in mate!

Yes the feed pumps are parallel. They are drawing around 20 amps so seem to be adequately powered but ill double the wire run first chance i get to be sure. ( its only 1 meter run from the connection point)

Good to know the pressure jumping up and back is normal as it seemed like the problem but now left with unknown cause. Like you say could be the plumbing. Ill post a more detailed pic of that as well as the italian install diagram when i can.

Yeah i here you on mutants etc but in europe more than the US you are forced away from spectra by truely ridiculous pricing by the local agents ( try $11,000 for equivalent model installed). Couldnt afford that and mrs had to have it before we cross the pond so stuck with Italians that dont return calls on products with 3 year warranties haha!

Thanks again though you are still right Tellie!

[Tellie]

Originally Posted by Barra

Tellie

Was hoping you would jump in mate!

Yes the feed pumps are parallel. They are drawing around 20 amps so seem to be adequately powered but ill double the wire run first chance i get to be sure. ( its only 1 meter run from the connection point)

Good to know the pressure jumping up and back is normal as it seemed like the problem but now left with unknown cause. Like you say could be the plumbing. Ill post a more detailed pic of that as well as the italian install diagram when i can.

Yeah i here you on mutants etc but in europe more than the US you are forced away from spectra by truely ridiculous pricing by the local agents ( try $11,000 for equivalent model installed). Couldnt afford that and mrs had to have it before we cross the pond so stuck with Italians that dont return calls on products with 3 year warranties haha!

Thanks again though you are still right Tellie!

Yeah I do understand. It's easy for me to spend other peoples money.
But I'm still in the Mountains of North Carolina but I'll be back in a few days so if you can get together the diagram and a few more pics we'll take it from there.

[Barra]

Originally Posted by RaymondR

All pumps are sensitive to pressure losses on the suction side. If both pump suctions are tee'd into the same suction line and it is not big enough they will both be starved for suction and pump a reduced flow. If you can run each pump singly and measure the output and it is about half the rated output it would tend to indicate whilst the suction size is sufficient for one pump it is not so for both at the same size.

If it is indicated that you have this problem you should plan on a bigger suction side installation when you get around to installing a dedicated raw water supply.

The silver thing is a pulsation dampener. This device cushions the large pressure pulses caused when the intensifier (high pressure pump) changes direction. It is pressure charged with air and the rule of thumb is that when relaxed - no pressure in the rest of the system - is that the pressure in it should be about half the working pressure of the system. It probably will not change the efficiency of the system if it is not working but protects the system from the effects of water hammer.

Thanks for IDing the pulsation dampener. Where in the plumbing should it fit though ( since it wasnt in the diagram i just put it between feed pump and filter)

Re the intake size ill look into that. The intake is 20mm and the whole set up is plumbed on 16mm hose per instructions so it should be adequate intuitavely. Maybe the strainer is an issue?

Again ill post more detailed view see if anything looks odd.

Thanks mate

[Tellie]

Originally Posted by Barra

Thanks for IDing the pulsation dampener. Where in the plumbing should it fit though ( since it wasnt in the diagram i just put it between feed pump and filter)

Re the intake size ill look into that. The intake is 20mm and the whole set up is plumbed on 16mm hose per instructions so it should be adequate intuitavely. Maybe the strainer is an issue?

Again ill post more detailed view see if anything looks odd.

Thanks mate

The best place for the accumulator tank is plumbed between the output of the two feed pumps and the input of the high pressure hydraulic pump.

[RaymondR]

To add to Tellie's comment the closer you can place it to the source of the pressure surges the fewer components that will be subjected to them. As close to the intensifier as you can is best and certainly between the filter housing and the intensifier.