What is the carbon footprint for the US MSD program?

[SecondBase]

Originally Posted by peghall

IMO it could make a good case for more affordable, less power hungry treatment devices INSTEAD of holding tanks.

Exactly how power hungry is that Mr Fusion ?

If we combine Peghall's early suggestion with the Mr Fusion we may have solved the whole problem and have displacement hulls moving at 88 knots !!

[ArmyDaveNY]

Originally Posted by SecondBase

Exactly how power hungry is that Mr Fusion ?

If we combine Peghall's early suggestion with the Mr Fusion we may have solved the whole problem and have displacement hulls moving at 88 knots !!

If you combine the Mr. Fusion with the Flux Capacitor you could eliminate the holding tank altogether because you would have the ability to return before you left and use the head at the marina, then return to your last known waypoint to continue the sail!

[K_V_B]

In the Netherlands a few years ago it looked like the "no discharge from vessels" was going to apply to everything. We wouldn't even have been permitted to wash the decks of our boats anymore. Luckily saner minds prevailed...

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Understood, thanks.

From an enforcement standpoint... you never catch someone actually dumping. So the only practical way to enforce is to board when the boat is within the prohibited zone and check that valve.

So what should happen when the LEOs board your boat, anchored off that busy popular beach, and your valve is set to dump? You might legitimately claim oh, heck, I had it open when we were offshore, and I've just forgotten to reset. Entirely possible. Or maybe that's just your standard excuse and you never bother to use your holding tank...

(using the generic hypothetical "you", not refering to anyone here)

Your 9-year-old child's friend (or your great uncle Wilbur after a hearty breakfast) will use the facilities when you're at the beach - they don't know anything about valves and MSDs - and now you'r boat has just discharged in a prohibited area.

Practical laws must convey more benefits and as few burdens as possible, and they must be enforceable. The only realistic way to enforce MSD/dumping laws is to check valves as part of the standard routine boat check. yes this will catch up the forgetful innocent as well as the flagrant violator; the only answer to that is to set a limit that makes compliance more likely.

To me, a 1-mile limit would create a higher number of innocent violators, because more of us will routinely be over 1 mile from shore. Whereas, far fewer boaters would be past the 3-mile limit, and therefore fewer boats would be even thinking about switching that valve.

Yes I completely accept that sewage dumped at 1-mile has negligable impact... but the 3 mile limit would keep more people in compliance, and have a lower "bycatch" of well-intentioned people who just forgot.

Also, I expect the vast majority of boat checks would be within 1 mile of shore, so a 3 mile limit means you really have no excuse to have that valve open within 1 mile...

(it's raining and I'm bored at work)

This whole post falls under "ignorance is not a defense". The specific distance doesn't matter. If you dump within the legal limit, saying you forgot or uncle albert didn't know the valve couldn't be opened, doesn't matter.

Also by saying the rule will be 3 miles but enforcement will be 1 mile, you create a conflict and as previously described, some people will simply give up an intentionally dump where they shouldn't (but usually will be careful to close the valve so if they do get searched, they will be technically in compliance). Inconsistent enforcement is not a good thing.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

The point there is that it can easily be argued that there's a carbon cost to unnecessary vehicle stops, and if you have full visibility, there's no additional safety to stopping... but we do anyway because it's the law, and most of us know it's a good practice overall.

As a traffic engineer by trade, un-warranted stop signs and traffic signals are a curse and should be done away with every chance we can. 9 out of 10 stop signs should be Yield Signs. Signals should be put in flash late night. (Yes, I have strong feelings about this.)

Inappropriate use not only increase carbon costs but increase crashes.

It is NOT "good practice overall" but politicians often force bad choices.

Same situation here. Rather than providing supportable limits, we make matters worse when we take the approach that if a little is good, more must be better approach.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

In the Netherlands a few years ago it looked like the "no discharge from vessels" was going to apply to everything. We wouldn't even have been permitted to wash the decks of our boats anymore. Luckily saner minds prevailed...

It's illegal to dump plastic (at least in the states). If your gelcoat is a little chaulky and you see a bit of white runoff when washing...per the letter of the law, they could fine you as those fine particulates are plastic. I don't believe there is any limit on the quantity or form factor.

You are probably fine until someone in authority feels the need to harass you.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

It's illegal to dump plastic (at least in the states). If your gelcoat is a little chaulky and you see a bit of white runoff when washing...per the letter of the law, they could fine you as those fine particulates are plastic. I don't believe there is any limit on the quantity or form factor.

You are probably fine until someone in authority feels the need to harass you.

Probably a politician that needs to justify their job.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

This whole post falls under "ignorance is not a defense". The specific distance doesn't matter. If you dump within the legal limit, saying you forgot or uncle albert didn't know the valve couldn't be opened, doesn't matter.

Also by saying the rule will be 3 miles but enforcement will be 1 mile, you create a conflict and as previously described, some people will simply give up an intentionally dump where they shouldn't (but usually will be careful to close the valve so if they do get searched, they will be technically in compliance). Inconsistent enforcement is not a good thing.

That's wrong, and as a traffic engineer you already know this. If a stretch of road is signed for 55 mph, most jurisdictions will not pursue and ticket til you've exceeded say 60 or 65. They don't announce this, but most of us know this is how it works. Least in my neck of the woods.

Likewise with a stated limit of 3 miles. You know and I know that a fleet of LEO craft will not routinely be doing boardings at the 2.9 mile line. We all know that most routine pleasure craft boardings happen within 1 mile of shore, which gives tons of wiggle room for well-intentioned and experienced boaters to dump at some point greater than 1 or 2 miles or so, and then set the valve off. There will be local knowledge of where LEO like to make checks. For the the less savvy, or those who never get near to 3 miles out, law says no dumping, and they will simply never dump. So that leaves the people who will actually get caught with the valve open, and they are more likely to be ignorant of the law, lazy, or intentional violators. the very people who should get charged.

Given your occupation, I'm surprised that your zeal for some just utopian framework is overwhelming your knowledge of the practicalities of enforcement. Would I be correct in saying that your actual position is that there should be zero enforcement of a no-discharge boundary, just guidelines with voluntary compliance? Or are you mainly after a 1-mile limit, and are ok with enforcement right up to that limit?

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

It's illegal to dump plastic (at least in the states). If your gelcoat is a little chaulky and you see a bit of white runoff when washing...per the letter of the law, they could fine you as those fine particulates are plastic. I don't believe there is any limit on the quantity or form factor.

You are probably fine until someone in authority feels the need to harass you.

Not a chemist, but I think that unless you're wet-sanding, what comes off when you wash is mostly oxidized and the particle size is really really small. Possibly too small to accumulate in organisms.

The amount of plastic introduced from washing boats is going to be pretty insignificant compared to what enters the watersheds from other sources. A big one is the fibers that go into the water every time one washes synthetic clothes.

Plastics are now in the food chain and are showing up everywhere, including in humans. This will probably approach crisis level in a generation or two, so that means we can ignore it for now, like we already do with climate change. Oops shouldn't have gone there.

[Kenomac]

All this poo talk all over again. Best most of you forget about visiting most major seaside cities and towns worldwide, because direct discharge is what they do without any harmfull effects. For example: If you ever leave your utopian shell and visit Venice, Italy to see the fine art, architecture and shops, don't forget to check out the city sewer system. You won't even need to pay for a guided tour unless you spring for a gondola ride.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

All this poo talk all over again. Best most of you forget about visiting most major seaside cities and towns worldwide, because direct discharge is what they do without any harmfull effects. For example: If you ever leave your utopian shell and visit Venice, Italy to see the fine art, architecture and shops, don't forget to check out the city sewer system. Well actually you won't need to pay for a guided tour unless you spring for a gondola ride.

You mean they don't install under ground septic systems. Who would want to live in an open sewer?

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

That's wrong, and as a traffic engineer you already know this. If a stretch of road is signed for 55 mph, most jurisdictions will not pursue and ticket til you've exceeded say 60 or 65. They don't announce this, but most of us know this is how it works. Least in my neck of the woods.

Show me one case where this is officially stated.

If a cop decides to, they can give you a ticket for 56 in a 55. That's a bad system because it doesn't use common sense and when it happens, the individual sees an injustice because as you say, most people know that cops don't usually pull you over for 1mph over.

Of course, 55mph speed limits on non-freeways are politically determined not based on engineering. A great many rural 2 lane-2way roads should be 60-65mph.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

All this poo talk all over again. Best most of you forget about visiting most major seaside cities and towns worldwide, because direct discharge is what they do without any harmfull effects.

Besides the smell, flies, vermin, etc.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Not a chemist, but I think that unless you're wet-sanding, what comes off when you wash is mostly oxidized and the particle size is really really small. Possibly too small to accumulate in organisms.

The amount of plastic introduced from washing boats is going to be pretty insignificant compared to what enters the watersheds from other sources. A big one is the fibers that go into the water every time one washes synthetic clothes.

We all know that but as stated "per the letter of the law".

The law does not say if it's less than 1 gram or the particle size is less than 1 mm. It says if you put plastic in the water, you are in violation.

I have heard of (thankfully) aborted attempts to say you can't wash your boat because the soap and dirt get in the water.

Haven't heard of anyone trying the plastic approach but per the law....

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Cadence

You mean they don't install under ground septic systems. Who would want to live in an open sewer?

The canal system is the sewer, always has been and working well for over 1000 years. Direct untreated discharge... it's enough to make the average greenie weak in the knees.

90,000 visitors on any given day, and no disease outbreak.