Where do you dump?

[HeinSdL]

Kind of splitting hairs here anyway. After a good downpour in the port where I currently reside the town's sewers overflow into the harbour making the marina almost inhabitable due to the stench (=> sore throat). Not to speak of the huge numbers of condoms and sanitary towel wrappers floating by, all flushed down toilets.

So... we are pretty disgusting all round really (did I mention yet how many of those covid masks are now floating around in the Med?) and someone trying to adopt solutions for a better world should be applauded (if only we could have adopted composting solutions vs flush and forget, 100 or so years ago). There are issues with composting probably (though Mike seems to know what he is talking about), but flush and forget is a HUGE issue.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by thinwater

...I was hoping for more discussion of options, perhaps things I had not thought of. Bag specs (I'm guessing the trouble makers use something lame and thin, unlike WAG bags, which are quite tough). Adding a bunch of lime or ash on the last mix. Transport options....

Options:


Transport for composting. This has been discussed. I've done this with land-based systems, but not on the boat. The primary reason is that our boat unit is only used a few times each year; it's a sport boat we day sail, which is why it is such a good application. I would compost if I cruised locally and lived near the boat. Just as easy.


It's all well and good for manufacturers to talk about composting for CYA. We understand. They need to give real world advice. I guess that is up to us.



Bagging. I used commercial WAG bags. They are a VERY HD double bag system, with zip-locks and an odor barrier. Rupturing them would not be easy. Overkill, but I have them. But if I were cruising locally and had to dispose in dumpsters, I think it is the way I would go, based on these discussions. No chance of rupture transporting or in the dumpster before compacting. No smell, no possibility of flies. Using a good bag system (could be other types of good HD bags) is a small compromise. I'm guessing the trouble starts when people use a cheap bag in a small can by a park bench. An opportunity for us to self-regulate. A minimum mil spec? 2 mils min for the outer bag, always double, and seal both securely? (WAG bags are typically 3 mil outer and 2 mil inner).



Where. Again, the trouble starts when thoughtless cruisers unload their waste in small cans by a park bench. In fact, they should NOT be disposing of cruiser waste in those cans at all. They are for coffee cups. This is OBVIOUS, and head waste is not the only problem. For example, the Annapolis ego alley dinghy dock really should have a big sign directing cruisers to the city dumpster and away from the park waste cans. Technically the dumpsters are for the city marina, but they need to be realistic (the trash is going to go somewhere). This is an issue any marina or cruiser dinghy landing needs to resolve, either way. Another opportunity to educate and self-regulate.


-----


This is a thing that is happening. Best practices are needed.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

You posted only part of the Disposal instruction, leaving out the part of it where they say it is ok to put completely composted product in dumpsters, but if it contains fresh material it should go in a proper compost bin to finish decomposing. They clearly make the distinction between fully composted and that which contains fresh material but you seem to be trying to blur that line for your own convenience. Just do what the manufacturer of your Natures Head tells you to do and I’ll have no problem with it.

You really need to go back and read without so much bias. They clearly state that if disposing relatively fresh waste, wear gloves and take ordinary precautions for disposal, and don't use compost or dessicated as fertilizer on plants intended for human consumption. There is no statement of hazard, nothing like that unless you work really hard to make a point that makes no sense whatsoever.

But noted. You're not a compost head type of person. Can't you just leave it at that? Nobody begrudges you for whatever choice you made. Why so critical? Are you really so worried about the health and welfare of garbage handlers? If it's such a hazard, I would hope you can drum up better evidence than misinterpreting the website of a tiny company.

Peter

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Or they can walk the pee tank up once a day. (Our's was good for 2-3 days).

You really don't seem to be sufficiently hydrated. *grin*

Here is my interim conclusion after staying current with this thread and doing research, some of which I've shared. I'm not King of the world so what I think doesn't matter.

1. Disposing of waste from composting toilets in public waste bins and dumpsters is anti-social and rude.
2. As a society we need to stop using disposable diapers and go back to cotton diapers.
3. Disposable feminine hygiene products are bad. Menstrual cups are good.

I have many other opinions but I think I've probably pissed off enough people for one post. *grin*

Happy Labor Day to my countrymen, and all the rest of you have a good day also.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

You really need to go back and read without so much bias. They clearly state that if disposing relatively fresh waste, wear gloves and take ordinary precautions for disposal, and don't use compost or dessicated as fertilizer on plants intended for human consumption. There is no statement of hazard, nothing like that unless you work really hard to make a point that makes no sense whatsoever.

But noted. You're not a compost head type of person. Can't you just leave it at that? Nobody begrudges you for whatever choice you made. Why so critical? Are you really so worried about the health and welfare of garbage handlers? If it's such a hazard, I would hope you can drum up better evidence than misinterpreting the website of a tiny company.

Peter

I’ve posted and quoted what Natures Head actually says in their website but you seem to think you can read between the lines and have the inside track on just what they ‘really’ mean, which is distinctly different from what they clearly say. I understand that we all occasionally are tempted to take a little ‘poetic license’ when it benefits our POV but when it comes to how to dispose of human waste on land, I think it’s best to take the clearly written disposal instructions literally.

I don’t begrudge you or anyone else for having a composting head. You’re right that it’s not my preference, but to each his own. I’m just saying I don’t think it’s right for people to put fresh poop into public dumpsters and pretend that it’s dried or composted or desiccated when it’s clearly not any of those. Just have a second container onboard and let it dry for a few weeks and double bag it and then I think it’s appropriate for a dumpster, no problem.

A poster just above this writes about using their composting very infrequently and then using large ziploc bags with double seals and that sounds perfectly fine to me. Infrequent use means he’ll probably go all season without having to clean it out and when he eventually does it’ll truly be desiccated material and he’ll probably take it home to actually use as compost instead of putting it in the dumpster, perfect. But as Mike O so vehemently and repeatedly insisted on our previous discussion on dumping but seems to have forgotten for this thread, no matter where the bar is set, some people always break the rules a little if it’s in their self interest, so if we say it’s ok to put double sealed dried poop inside extra rugged bags in the dumpster, someone will ‘adjust’ that to fresh poop in 2 open top trash bags and someone else will decide that since it’s so “soil”-like that wrapping it in a couple layers of newspapers is good enough, and its not my fault there’s no dumpster available so I “had” to settle for that trash can beside the park bench, what’s the big deal.

So, since there aren’t any “proper compost bins” at marinas to handle this sort of waste, except for those who are sailing locally and take their waste home to properly compost it and those who dump it offshore, I think it’s inappropriate to encourage people to install these things intending to be putting fresh poop into the part of the waste stream that will never see a sewage treatment plant or septic system. Until it’s truly dried out, it’s sewage and should be treated as such.

[thinwater]

a. If we assume everyone will break rules, we'll need to assume there are no holding tanks in use or any pump out stations in use. I'm tired of that whole line of discussion. It doesn't lead anywhere. Let's assume most people will follow rules that are explained to them. Most people are nice that way.

b. It is probably a stretch assume that a manufacture such as Natures Head is speaking as more than an individual with opinions. They are not a regulatory agency and they are pro-composting or they would not have gone in that business. Thus, I think a reasonable person would take their statement as an amalgamation of CYA, personal opinion, and best practice.

c. Consider WAG bags. https://cleanwaste.com/ Search the net for disposal instructions. FEMA hands them out by the hundreds of thousands. The NPS hands them to every climber headed up into the higher Tetons and other mountain parks (when camping above the treeline is expected). Neither FEMA or the NPS offer special disposal instructions. The expectation seems obvious. If you can find a printed rule that applies to WAG bags, please post. I have not found anything other than scattered complaints without solutions.


Also note that wag bags are worse than what we are talking about. They typically have too little absorbent and include pee. Apples vs. hand grenades.




This is a thing that is happening. Best practices are needed.

[AA3JY]

Current marina here ( will not mention it’s name) apparently has a no dumping of the urine tank (separate from the composter)in the marina’s toilet. Interesting..one can pee but can’t dump pee ..

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by AA3JY

Current marina here ( will not mention it’s name) apparently has a no dumping of the urine tank (separate from the composter)in the marina’s toilet. Interesting..one can pee but can’t dump pee ..

Rules, like the law, need not be rational to be rules. You can pee over the side, but not into a bucket and dump in the bucket.

Is the marina on septic or public utility sewer? I can see that being an issue.

[Captain Puget]

Yep, waste laws are funny. You can stand at the rail and pee overboard , but if you per in a bucket and toss it overboard you get a big ticket 🤪

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by AA3JY

Current marina here ( will not mention it’s name) apparently has a no dumping of the urine tank (separate from the composter)in the marina’s toilet. Interesting..one can pee but can’t dump pee ..

Where is this?

It certainly makes little sense. Even if they are on a septic system, the same volume ends up going through. Perhaps if the system is seriously under-sized, or in need of major repairs... but otherwise, it's the same volume.

[Shanachie]

I'd like to think that most sailors just use common sense.


Do you need to be exactly three miles offshore? No. They just had to set some legal limit. Anywhere offshore in the Atlantic, Pacific or Gulf of Mexico is going to be fine. In the harbor or a river? No, no no.


There is lots of blame to spread around.



The point about government waste systems is valid. When I kept a previous boat in Biscayne Bay, the Miami-Dade sewage system blew out and dumped 80-some million gallons of untreated waste into it.


Everyone feared disaster, but it was back to normal within a week.


That's not to say it did not cause problems. A lot of untreated waste can cause algae blooms, damage reefs and unsafe levels of toxins in the water for a time.


When I lived in Fort Lauderdale, the city used to love to blame boaters for the poor condition of the New River. (They had to cancel a swimming race once because the river water was too dangerous.)


But a strong counter argument was that much of the pollution was coming from aged wastewater pipes leaking into the river. The boaters were just scapegoats.


Also, where I sail, there are lots of dolphins and manatees. They are mammals and also poop. As a point of fact, they are putting much more waste into the water than boaters ever would.


Like the old W.C. Fields joke: "I would never drink water. Fish sh-t in it.":

[Viking Sailor]

Mike,


It varies -- but I always "leave a clean wake" !!!


Paul

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Even if they are on a septic system, the same volume ends up going through.

In fairness, much more dilution one flush at a time than a urine tank all at once.

Many rules, regulations, and laws can be traced to a single incident. The "one bad apple" scenario. On the other hand some stem from special interest or other control freak. In the end it doesn't matter. The rules are the rules.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by AA3JY

Current marina here ( will not mention it’s name) apparently has a no dumping of the urine tank (separate from the composter)in the marina’s toilet. Interesting..one can pee but can’t dump pee ..

Guessing the back story on this has more to do with an inconsiderate boater than with efficacy of urine disposal. A spill for example. Or disposing of jugs in small bathroom trash can made for paper towels only. You get the idea.

Peter

[Seabeau]

Originally Posted by AA3JY

Current marina here ( will not mention it’s name) apparently has a no dumping of the urine tank (separate from the composter)in the marina’s toilet. Interesting..one can pee but can’t dump pee ..

Most marinas have quite a vested interest in conventional pump-out systems.
Composters don't break down and need expensive repairs or yearly maintenance.