Where do you dump?

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

ok, I'd like to see this question answered.....truthfully !!!

how many people pump in the B'mas....my guess....0

how many people just discharge directly overboard....my guess....everybody

Places like Bahamas, Virgins, Maine, etc where pumpouts are scarce make discharge a practical requirement.


For our cruise this past summer (MD to Bay of Fundy and back), I broke the law practically every day (pumped when on daily passage on the Atlantic, but rarely were we 3 miles offshore -- if we were, I did, but I didn't make an intentional detour.) From my personal view, I flush to the holding tank, and try never to empty the tank in confined waters (truly, I try, but can't always). Especially in confined waters, I try and use pumpouts, but as a traveling cruiser, they can be hard to find and work out details (which pier, what hours, are they working, etc). Nirvana is places like Port Washington (Long Island) where the pumpout boat comes to you for free.



For more typical "cruising" (where you are anchored long enough to ponder the value of anchor swivels), pumpouts require you to up anchor to go to a station (if one exists), or in those places where they don't exist, the options become even more of a dilemma. Hence, the observation that about 0 boats do it.




hmm.... a ponder. Wouldn't it be nice for a dedicated branch of Active Captain or Waterway Guide (or a "view option") to include nothing but pumpout stations, with reasonably current status. Here's a trivia question -- how many pumpout stations exist between Mt Desert Island and St John New Brunswick (110 miles)? Zero. There is one 5 miles east of MDI, but it is listed as "inactive."

[Tetepare]

Laws aside, is it ethical to dump in Toronto harbor during a thunderstorm while the city dumps thousands of gallons of sewage?

[lestersails]

Originally Posted by Tetepare

Laws aside, is it ethical to dump in Toronto harbor during a thunderstorm while the city dumps thousands of gallons of sewage?

Is it ethical to kill someone when thousands are being killed in a war?
Is it ethical to kill a dog because thousands are being euthanized?
Is it ethical to throw trash out the window of your car in an area where there is a lot of trash by the side of the road?
That someone would need to ask this question is quite revealing.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Tetepare

Laws aside, is it ethical to dump in Toronto harbor during a thunderstorm while the city dumps thousands of gallons of sewage?

I get your point, but I've never found the argument that, 'someone is worse than me, therefore my actions don't matter,' as very compelling. Put in a simplistic way, is it ethical to shoot one person if someone is killing a thousand? In the case of pollution, a single contribution is never significant unto itself, but if every Toronto Harbour boater did this, the area would quickly become ecologically damaged.

I'm well on record saying I don't think the 3nm limit law is particularly rational. This number coincides with international marine law around pollution and dumping, so I can see where it came from. And it probably makes sense in some places, but not others. Laws are rarely very subtle, and most are simple, even when life is not.

My view remains that one should dump in areas of good volume and/or flow. Conversely, one shouldn't dump in confined areas where flow is limited. And I don't think one should dump in a specifically-designated NDZ, although some seem less warranted than others.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

ok, I'd like to see this question answered.....truthfully !!!

how many people pump in the B'mas....my guess....0

how many people just discharge directly overboard....my guess....everybody

I've never found anywhere to pump out in the Bahamas. There is hardly anywhere from which reaching three miles offshore is hard, so I do.

I have two use cases. 1. My wife and I on my boat, 40 USG holding and an Electroscan. I don't use the Electroscan in restricted water (generally the bacteria count coming out is lower than going in, but I think about nitrogen and other compounds that contribute to algae blooms). 2. On delivery, with full (usually me and three crew on board).

For case 1. we can last about a week which is about my threshold for being ready to go somewhere else. For case 2. we are generally starting or ending a delivery and so time inside three miles is limited. Sometimes there are owner-aboard training trips that are more leisurely (well, for me) and we do cross three miles to dump. It isn't hard. It is also the right thing to do.

For cruisers who think Florida to the Bahamas is a passage and who treat inlets as a feat I understand the attraction of just opening the sea cocks. That doesn't make it right. Similarly, using US municipalities dumping raw sewage during weather events or due to failures is not an excuse. Moral high ground.

Originally Posted by sailingharry

hmm.... a ponder. Wouldn't it be nice for a dedicated branch of Active Captain or Waterway Guide (or a "view option") to include nothing but pumpout stations, with reasonably current status. Here's a trivia question -- how many pumpout stations exist between Mt Desert Island and St John New Brunswick (110 miles)? Zero. There is one 5 miles east of MDI, but it is listed as "inactive."

I have sent your suggestion to my friends at WWG and SSECN.

[Bowdrie]

Years ago, an old guy who ran a haul-out facility says:
"Next thing you know they're going to want diapers on fish".

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

hmm.... a ponder. Wouldn't it be nice for a dedicated branch of Active Captain or Waterway Guide (or a "view option") to include nothing but pumpout stations, with reasonably current status.

Heard back from WWG this morning (Sunday!) and there is discussion taking place.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

Heard back from WWG this morning (Sunday!) and there is discussion taking place.

Thanks, Auspicious.


If you chat more with WWG, you can drop my name. Or just describe me -- if he's as bad as I am at names, he won't remember. But the editor and I spent considerable time exchanging ideas at the SSCA GAM in St. Augustine last month. Great guy! Although, as I mentioned, I have no idea what his name is... LOL


A little more follow up on the "reasonably current status" part. I've often looked up in state run listings, both locally here in MD and when going further afield, and found them to be frustratingly out of date. For instance, in Maine, the Casco Bay pumpout boat has been OOC since COVID hit (and still OOC through summer of 2021), yet is still proudly listed on the Maine site. Or the only pumpout realistically available for me (by "realistically, I mean without a 1 hour round trip motorboat ride) is the Dunning marina on Mill Creek (Whitehall Bay) often is used for transient mooring -- making it unavailable.


And a side note on "realistically available" -- a ponder for environmentalists. And and serious question, not tongue in cheek. Which is better for the environment? Burning 1.2 gallons of diesel on a 20-year old (ie, "dirty") diesel, or dumping 10 gallons of holding tank in mid-Bay? I know which is "legal" but not sure which is "best."



Harry

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

But the editor and I spent considerable time exchanging ideas at the SSCA GAM in St. Augustine last month. Great guy! Although, as I mentioned, I have no idea what his name is... LOL

Almost certainly Ed Tillet, the Managing Editor. Tall, sandy hair.

Originally Posted by sailingharry

A little more follow up on the "reasonably current status" part.

My suggestion was to tie pumpout status to the calls and emails they already engage in for updated fuel prices. That won't get all the municipal services (like the Annapolis pumpout boat) but it will be a big step forward.

Originally Posted by sailingharry

the only pumpout realistically available for me (by "realistically, I mean without a 1 hour round trip motorboat ride) is the Dunning marina on Mill Creek (Whitehall Bay) often is used for transient mooring -- making it unavailable.

And a side note on "realistically available" -- a ponder for environmentalists.

I haven't been up Mill Creek in some time so can't picture Dunning Marina. Could you squeeze in by Med-mooring to the pumpout dock? Since we're in the US, rafting up and dragging the hose across the inboard boat's deck would not be well received. *grin*

As far as environmentalists go, I don't think the speak with one voice and are often not consistent. The ones most concerned with nitrogen and algae blooms will give you one answer while those focused on air/carbon another. Of course it is worth noting that motoring is legal and dumping is not.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

Almost certainly Ed Tillet, the Managing Editor. Tall, sandy hair.




I haven't been up Mill Creek in some time so can't picture Dunning Marina. Could you squeeze in by Med-mooring to the pumpout dock?



Of course it is worth noting that motoring is legal and dumping is not.

Yes, Ed Tillet. Really enjoyed talking with him.

The marina is immediately inside the entrance to the creek. It is the Annapolis Naval Station Marina. My approach to transients in the way, is to either squeeze in at one end or delay my pump out till my next trip. I literally pass it on trips both in and out.

My comment on the tradeoff of air pollution vs water pollution was a ponder. I know which is legal! [emoji849]

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

My comment on the tradeoff of air pollution vs water pollution was a ponder. I know which is legal! [emoji849]

I did not mean to imply otherwise. I was reflecting, which seemed an appropriate response to a ponder. *grin*

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

I did not mean to imply otherwise. I was reflecting, which seemed an appropriate response to a ponder. *grin*

[emoji106][emoji39]

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

As far as environmentalists go, I don't think the speak with one voice and are often not consistent. The ones most concerned with nitrogen and algae blooms will give you one answer while those focused on air/carbon another. Of course it is worth noting that motoring is legal and dumping is not.

Thread drift alert but at least it’s to a slightly less unpleasant topic…..

Back during the 70’s energy crisis there was a big push here in Maine to harness hydropower as a source of pollution free energy, and anyone could “file” on a section of stream and erect a small hydropower dam to generate energy that the power company had to buy. Since Maine has so many streams and rivers, there were a lot of these small hydro dams erected and brought on line. I wasn’t much interested in such things back then but a school friend of mine filed and built one locally. But then the fishermen complained that all those dams were making it impossible for fish to swim to their spawning grounds and got legislation passed to force their removal in order to protect the fish. Both sides sincerely claimed to be environmentalists but had differing priorities as to which aspect of the environment was more important.