Where do you dump?

[ixnax]

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

There should have been the possible answer...
"Always dump at the slip since my boat never goes out and the walk to the head is too far."

Word. We have met the enemy, and he is us.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

True, but holding tanks breed pathogens, and besides that, holding tanks concentrate waste. Concentration is bad. Breeding (rather than killing off) pathogens is bad. We put a lot (order or orders of magnitude?) less pathogens into the sea if we macerate and discharge immediately. And we disperse better like that. Storing waste up in holding tanks, only to dump it in more concentrated and pathogen-enhanced form, is only good if you really have no other choice because you are in some place (like a shellfish bed) which would really be harmed by your little direct discharge.

Direct discharge of fresh macerated waste is highly desirable. Provided of course you are not thereby fouling a shellfish bed or beach or anchorage.

While of course it’s less localized pollution to dump one toilet bowl of sewage at a time rather than 25 toilet bowls, the holding tank enables you to do all your dumping underway and at a distance further from shore or other boaters so that it is well dispersed and sterilized by salt water before anyone comes in contact with it. Also, traveling at 7 knots, or about 12 feet per second, at the rate my gulper pump is rated at (4.6gpm) it is spreading only about 10 ounces of sewage over that 12’ the boat travels as opposed to the whole macerated or unmacerated bowl of sewage that amounts to much more than 10 ounces all in one spot and closer to shore and other boaters. Now if you make all your flushes while underway and in open water I’d agree with you but we both know that’s not realistic. However it is realistic to only dump your holding tank while underway and in open water.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

While of course it’s less localized pollution to dump one toilet bowl of sewage at a time rather than 25 toilet bowls, the holding tank enables you to do all your dumping underway and at a distance further from shore or other boaters so that it is well dispersed and sterilized by salt water before anyone comes in contact with it. Also, traveling at 7 knots, or about 12 feet per second, at the rate my gulper pump is rated at (4.6gpm) it is spreading only about 10 ounces of sewage over that 12’ the boat travels as opposed to the whole macerated or unmacerated bowl of sewage that amounts to much more than 10 ounces all in one spot and closer to shore and other boaters. Now if you make all your flushes while underway and in open water I’d agree with you but we both know that’s not realistic. However it is realistic to only dump your holding tank while underway and in open water.

I think this is a good point.


It's dispersal and dilution by virtue of discharging while underway (even a whole tank) versus dispersal and dilution by way of direct discharge of single flushes.


Would still not stop me from direct discharge in harmless places while not being underway (and it's legal where I sail), which I think is probably not worse and possibly still better, but you make a good point.


Got to admire the Canadian rule. Would that our regulators were so clever.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I think this is a good point.


It's dispersal and dilution by virtue of discharging while underway (even a whole tank) versus dispersal and dilution by way of direct discharge of single flushes.


Would still not stop me from direct discharge in harmless places while not being underway (and it's legal where I sail), which I think is probably not worse and possibly still better, but you make a good point.


Got to admire the Canadian rule. Would that our regulators were so clever.

In an isolated anchorage not too close to shore I’m very willing to believe that a single macerated flush will never be noticed by anyone or even any shellfish and absolutely no harm is done to the environment. But most of us spend far more time in harbors than in sparsely populated anchorages. I realistically know that some people in my local harbor are flushing directly overboard even though I’ve never detected any evidence of it, and since it’s been hot lately there’s been a lot of kids (and myself) swimming off boats. I’d just be more comfortable if they had holding tanks and went outside the harbor, away from where anyone might be swimming to get rid of their sewage. It’s probably no problem to be swimming even 100’ from a single macerated flush, but still, just the idea of it makes swimming seem like a less appealing activity to me. I realize that it’s legal and causes no problems in the UK and I assume there’s at least some swimming going on? But I just think taking it out of the harbor is a better option.

I think your point regarding the relative merits of many small dumps versus one large one makes sense so as a result of these threads I’m going to make more of an effort to dump my holding tank every time I get about 1/2 mile from shore rather than waiting until I think it’s almost full as I’ve done in the past. One nice thing about the diaphragm pump is that it’s ok to let it run dry which is a good thing because I frequently don’t catch it for several minutes after the tank is empty. A macerator pump might not survive such treatment.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

So as I tally the scores, we have 41 (60%) in the obey-the-law category and 27 (40%) in the more legally questionable zone. Still not the vast majority that was claimed in the other thread.

While I don't think you did it on purpose, this is a classic example of a survey that gets the response that was desired by the surveyor.

It's very hard to get honest answers when asking people to call themselves out. High quality surveys put a lot of effort into addressing the likelihood of responders lying or simply not responding. In this case, those who are righteously indignant over people dumping are more likely to respond that they strictly follow the letter of the law in an effort to put pressure on those who don't. They want it to appear that everyone feels the same. Those who are more ambivalent about following what is reasonable which may not be to the letter of the law are far less likely to respond at all because they don't want to be shamed.

I'm only coming up with a hair over 50% following the letter of the law. Given the likelihood others are lying or more likely simply not responding, my take away would be it's highly likely that most boaters with onboard facilities do violate the rule when it's not convenient to follow.

Even if we take your number at face value, 40% of the population regularly violating a law suggests a poorly thought out law.

[hpeer]

“Obey the Law” is itself an imprecise term. Where I am frequently laws are often silly and are not supported by infrastructure.

Where it to be considered “the INTENT of the law”, “ common sense”, or “common decency” the answer would be very different.

But then again this issue could be viewed through the lens of population density and2pr community. I suspect you could support theories that folks behave depending upon their anonymity, community cohesion, population density, active enforcement or any number of other factors.

Personally our behavior is tailored to the time and place, what makes sense where we are. We (my Wife in particular) wants to be an ethical person and do the right thing. So this year we put a Purasan on the boat but also an Incinolet at our hunting cabin. This has entailed about $6,000 in cost and not insignificant labor. And yet we will still never meet the “law and order” mandated criteria wherever we go. Somehow I manage not not feel morally inferior to a weekend day sailor who only ever uses the club head or local sailor who has a pump out readily available.

Such is life.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by C420sailor

TIL humans are bad for the environment.

This is the truth and this is the answer. There are too many humans on the planet, more than it can support. The answer is to reduce the number of humans or at the very least limit the number of additional humans.

If you have six children, you are part of the problem. Even two is not good.

Keep it in your pants and help the planet.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by Nicholson58

Agree if discharge is the norm anyway. BUT please no paper. Keep the paper out and take it ashore or toss well to sea. Paper even in tiny shreds persists on the bottom for a very long time, covers corals and plants and is conspicuous to divers. No paper is also better for your head.

No paper? Wipe with your hand and then lick it clean?

Proper toilet paper dissolves in your holding tank within a few hours. Paper is a natural product, made from trees. Putting paper in the water is no worse than tree branches falling into the water.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

OK, so just to keep the running tally, I calculate we have about 62% following the law, and about 38% taking liberties with how they dump. Interesting...

As someone mentioned, I'm sure behaviour is highly influenced by local conditions. Again, the point of the poll is to try and get some sense of the proportions. So my thanks to all that have participated.

Do you think that people are going to admit to breaking the law in a public forum? It's like taking a poll asking who cheats on his wife.

It's not a scientific poll and the results are meaningless.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by hpeer

“Obey the Law” is itself an imprecise term. Where I am frequently laws are often silly and are not supported by infrastructure.

Where it to be considered “the INTENT of the law”, “ common sense”, or “common decency” the answer would be very different.

With a well crafted law, the letter of the law, the intent of the law, common sense and common decency are very closely aligned. While it may not be perfect, it should be pretty close.

When a poorly crafted poll that is likely heavily underestimating the violations suggest 40% of those interested enough to respond are violating the law, that suggests, the alignment is very poor.

In order to work, the vast majority of compliance with a law must be voluntary. There simply aren't enough police and jail cells to round up everyone and lock them up when the majority of the population is in violation.

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

I realistically know that some people in my local harbor are flushing directly overboard even though I’ve never detected any evidence of it, and since it’s been hot lately there’s been a lot of kids (and myself) swimming off boats.

Fiberglass hulls transmit sound easily. In the early morning or evening when things are quiet, I can occasionally hear someone pumping their head and the sound from the initial air from the hoses bubbling out into the water.

So yes, that's how you can tell. In Mexico it's not uncommon to see brown plumes from boats berthed in slips.

[Mike OReilly]

So, with 87 votes in the tally is 53 (61%) who claim to be following the letter of the law, and 34 (39%) who are taking their own counsel. Obviously not scientific, but the proportions are remaining pretty consistent.

BTW, the 34 total does not necessarily include people who always ignore the law. The "I dump where I think it’s OK" category could include dumping within the legal limits. But I interpret it otherwise in my tally.

Again, the objective here is to test the claim that many made in the other thread that most people ignore the law. No CF poll proves anything, but it is at least a minimal attempt at finding real data.

If you don't thin the poll is fair, start your own. This could certainly be improved upon.

[LoudMusic]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

I like to think that sailors are more of a problem as the majority of cruising vessels seem 42t and under so limited space and often, limited funds

Most powerboats capable of liveaboard and extended cruising have the funds to afford treatment plants and holding tanks and the space to fit them (Ours has 2 x saniloo and a 400 litre holding tank) and pump out while on passage at least a few miles from land

Of course the above is a generalisation

I think your observation is biased based on your ownership and use-case. On the US east coast I've seen plenty of power boats in extreme disrepair where someone living on board is literally crapping in a bucket and dumping it over the side.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

While I don't think you did it on purpose, this is a classic example of a survey that gets the response that was desired by the surveyor....

Or is it an example of response bias? Open a poll on PFD wear, and you would get the impression that nearly all sailors wear them. Look at Sail Magazine an you will only see them in ads for small boats and articles written by owners on safety topics. Zero in cruising boat ads. Look at folks actually on the water, and the answer is somewhere in the middle, depending on the size of the boats, the season, and where you are. It isn't that people are lying, it is more that only those that wish to brag about wearing their PFD respond.


Me? The truth? I wear a PFD and helmet kayaking in recognized white water. Sailing, I will use a tether in certain circumstances and a dry suit in certain circumstances. On a nice day... almost certainly neither unless I am singlehanding, and then maybe, more so if the water is cold, it's rough. or it's raining. Pump-outs? On my last boat I used stations 80% of the time, outside 3 miles 17% of the time, and 3% other. About. Now I have a dry head and the solids go in the dumpster double bagged. The pee is more variable, but if I'm not near a restroom, probably in the woods.



Not sayin' I'm right, just telling the truth.

[Macblaze]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

BTW, the 34 total does not necessarily include people who always ignore the law. The "I dump where I think it’s OK" category could include dumping within the legal limits. But I interpret it otherwise in my tally.

FWIW I ticked "I dump where I think it’s OK" because its true, but those recent revelations of Cdn regulations show that I am 99% within the law.