Where do you dump?

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Macblaze

FWIW I ticked "I dump where I think it’s OK" because its true, but those recent revelations of Cdn regulations show that I am 99% within the law.

Funny... me too . So really, I should add two more to the "legal" side.

Of course for me I'm only dumping urine, which I think is OK just about anywhere .

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Or is it an example of response bias?

Probably phrased better than I had it.

Dishonest pollsters (not implying this pollster) will frequently use this to design a poll that gets the response they want.

Polls really aren't a good method to get to the facts of this question.

[hpeer]

There is a saying among divers; there are 2 types of divers;
Those who pee in their wet suit and
Those who lie.

And

It has been reported in a study the average man has 13 sexual partners while the average woman has 3. This proves one thing;
Good women take surveys,
Very good women do not.

Have a blessed day.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

OK, so just to keep the running tally, I calculate we have about 62% following the law, and about 38% taking liberties with how they dump. Interesting....

Correction: you have about 62% ‘claiming’ they follow the law, which is a very different thing than actually following the law, even on an anonymous poll where one answer seems more virtuous than another. Then, you have people answering the poll who live in places such as the UK where it takes almost no effort to be legal, people who primarily sail in the Great Lakes or other freshwater areas, and people who post on sailing forums but don’t even own a cruising boat so have never been confronted with finding themself in a harbor with no working pumpout but with a full holding tank 20+ miles from the magical 3nm line. I realize that you have no way to restrict the poll to just actual boaters who actually cruise in salt water areas where the 3nm rule is in effect but would need that in order to have any chance of correctly characterizing what is typical behavior amongst actual cruisers.

Then, there’s the problem of existing laws actually encouraging behavior that is actually worse for the environment than if there were no law. We have NDZ’s which make it illegal for boats with working treatment devices from dumping, so people avoid the expense of installing one and dump raw sewage when confronted with a full holding tank and no convenient pumpout. Then, while composting heads make sense

[jtsailjt]

Must have hit send accidentally in previous post……

Then, while composting heads make sense in freshwater areas, in the US you’re still illegal if you don’t contain your urine, and if cruising in salt water areas you are packaging waste in 1 or 2 non biodegradable bags and then requiring that energy be used to transport and more energy expended to treat it at a remote site rather than just dumping it in the open salt water that surrounds you and letting dispersal and salt water sanitize it naturally. I’m sure it’s well intended and if you leave out the urine issue, complies with the law, but doesn’t seem very ecologically sound compared with the simpler alternative of dumping in open salt water.

The government encourages the placement of pumpout stations but doesn’t maintain them and frequently locates them where access is greatly restricted or will actually cost the dock owner, where the pumpout station is located, money every time it’s used. There are unenforced NDZ’s all up and down the Maine coast that I’m sure very few people are even aware of. The existing laws just don’t make sense or are so far removed from reality that they are routinely ignored. So, the result is most people just using their own judgment, which seems to be working out just fine since, despite all this ignorance of the law and ignoring the law, the water doesn’t seem to be getting polluted.

[Mike OReilly]

It's kinda amusing how you keep trying to find ways to justify your own personal beliefs, JT. The poll says what the poll says. It's not statistically significant, so it in no way can be taken as broad evidence. But it is better than someone claiming to know the truth based on their own personal experience.

And with 91 votes registered the tally now shows 62% doing the legal thing (56) and 38% doing their own thing (35).

For the record, I routinely dump my semi-composted waste over the side. I rarely bag and dump in a dumpster. Oh, and yes I do this dumping out past 3nm, although now that I know how enlightened Canadian law is, I will likely be less diligent.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

It's kinda amusing how you keep trying to find ways to justify your own personal beliefs, JT. The poll says what the poll says. It's not statistically significant, so it in no way can be taken as broad evidence. But it is better than someone claiming to know the truth based on their own personal experience.

And with 91 votes registered the tally now shows 62% doing the legal thing (56) and 38% doing their own thing (35).

Actually a flawed poll is worse than observation as it leads the responder to an answer that often not consistent with truth.

PS: I'm only coming up with 56% claiming they always abide by the law.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Actually a flawed poll is worse than observation as it leads the responder to an answer that often not consistent with truth.

PS: I'm only coming up with 56% claiming they always abide by the law.

That's your opinion. I say some data is better than pulling things out of one's biased behind. But that's my opinion.

But as I say -- and emphasise -- if you think it's flawed, then do better. It's easy to complain. Do something.

My law abiders include:

• Always dump further out to sea, beyond the legal line
• I always use the proper pump out facilities
• My country doesn't have pump out rules, yet.
• I never dump at sea -- only pumpouts

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

That's your opinion. I say some data is better than pulling things out of one's biased behind. But that's my opinion.

But as I say -- and emphasise -- if you think it's flawed, then do better. It's easy to complain. Do something.

My law abiders include:

• Always dump further out to sea, beyond the legal line
• I always use the proper pump out facilities
• My country doesn't have pump out rules, yet.
• I never dump at sea -- only pumpouts

I and others have provided better...actual observation. Much better than a biased poll that gets misleading results.

#3 is misleading to include when you imply they would abide by a 3 mile rule. Their is no indication if they would abide by a discharge rule.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

I and others have provided better...actual observation. Much better than a biased poll that gets misleading results.

#3 is misleading to include when you imply they would abide by a 3 mile rule. Their is no indication if they would abide by a discharge rule.

First person observation is the worst kind of data. You've provided some, I've provided some. Both are equally flawed and biased. Every researcher understands this. But once again, all I'm hearing is complaints. Do better. I'll happily support and promote your much-improved poll.

The poll does not ask about some hypothetical future. It asks what people are doing now. The #3 folks are abiding by the law. But feel free to remove it in your calculations. No skin off my brow.

[waterman46]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

I and others have provided better...actual observation. Much better than a biased poll that gets misleading results.

#3 is misleading to include when you imply they would abide by a 3 mile rule. Their is no indication if they would abide by a discharge rule.

Actual observation? Other than truthfully reporting your own practices, how do you know what anyone else does by observation? If the boat next to me in the marina pumps out the well-macerated contents of his holding tank when I'm not sitting in the cockpit where I could hear the sound of his pump, there's no way I would be the wiser.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by waterman46

Actual observation? Other than truthfully reporting your own practices, how do you know what anyone else does by observation? If the boat next to me in the marina pumps out the well-macerated contents of his holding tank when I'm not sitting in the cockpit where I could hear the sound of his pump, there's no way I would be the wiser.

When you are staying in marinas and you can see the pump out not being used day after day but there are people using the boats and not heading out to the 3 mile limit...simple deduction says they aren't abiding by the rules.

Even better, I've seen it happen in multiple ports on the Great Lakes which are NDZ so even if they go out from the marina occasionally, they still aren't following the rule if they never make it to the pump out.

[thinwater]

It's a forum and as such, it's a water cooler conversation.


As I see it, only 28% were flagrant, and probably half of those are OK from a practical perspective. I think that's pretty good. This isn't an all-or-nothing thing. For example, I try to go offshore or use a station, but a few percent of the time I've gotten full and was not 3 miles. I have avoided all enclosed harbors and areas near beaches, I didn't pump out the entire tank if I didn't need to (I might be somewhere better by evening or in a few hours--I only need a few gallons of room).


There really aren't many NDZs, and other than the Puget sound, most are quite small.


The Puget Sound is a very special case. It is not part of the "inland waters of the US" because of the border. Thus, rules as applied in the Chesapeake Bay don't work (no state jurisdiction). The only way to prevent cruise ships from dumping was NDZ. The Chesapeake By, on the other hand, is all inland waters, even though the opening is more than 6 miles and it can be 25 miles wide.

[desodave]

We can all quibble about the structure of a poll, and a number of people have done so. I'm sure that there is a sample bias in that harbour dumpers are unlikely to respond.
However, most of us have described what we do and Mike has tried to categorize this. In the end most have done what they think is the "right" thing given their situation. I think that is the story of his poll, not that it is a basis for a sweeping generalization about following the law.
Is this better than simple observation? I think so. I'm watching a small sailboat in our Desolation Sound anchorage that has been here longer than us - we're into our 4th day. I can guess he might be dumping but can't tell for sure. Observation can only happen when you're actually there to observe, and even then may just be your opinion about what you see. You can't generalize from either imo.

[thinwater]

In my creek observation would be useless. Nobody watching me would learn anything.



a. Pump-out boats service many in their slips.
b. I don't know where they are going.

c. The at sea pump out port is underwater.
d. Who pumps every time? I pumped about every 10th trip when day sailing, and not during every 2-4 day trip; I had a big tank.


You'd have to ask me. Or do like the Coast Guard and stop me once and a while and check the Y-valve. But I have a stack of cable ties.