Where do you dump?

[Mike OReilly]

Thanks Dave/Thin, I appreciate the words of understanding. I've never pretended this is a definite poll. But it is better than simply relying on personal observation (as you well demonstrate). If someone was watching my boat they'd never see me use a pump out. And they'd have to be truly voyeuristic to observe me dealing with the urine bucket. What would they conclude?

For the record, I include myself in the "I dump where I think it’s OK" category. That's because I dump my urine bottle wherever I think it's OK. I mostly dump the compost bin on land in remote areas, or out past the 3nm limit. But even though urine is mostly water, and almost completely sterile, it is still illegal to dump over the side.

Another thing to consider is that the "I dump where I think it’s OK. I don’t really consider where the legal line is" grouping does not necessarily mean these folks are breaching the law. You'll notice I usually use some sort of other term to describe this group. Since this group is driven by their own understanding of where it's appropriate to dump, I assume this sometimes means also being in legal compliance.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

It's kinda amusing how you keep trying to find ways to justify your own personal beliefs, JT. The poll says what the poll says. It's not statistically significant, so it in no way can be taken as broad evidence. But it is better than someone claiming to know the truth based on their own personal experience.

And with 91 votes registered the tally now shows 62% doing the legal thing (56) and 38% doing their own thing (35).

For the record, I routinely dump my semi-composted waste over the side. I rarely bag and dump in a dumpster. Oh, and yes I do this dumping out past 3nm, although now that I know how enlightened Canadian law is, I will likely be less diligent.

So the same guy who actually went so far as to start a poll to justify his own bias thinks it’s amusing that I’ve made conclusions based on my own 30+ years of first hand experience of having a cruising boat on the ocean and regularly being in touch with other cruisers? Interesting perspective….

I don’t think every place is exactly like where I mostly boat but I do see countless transient boats every season that pass through and when they learn the pumpout is broken, none of them head out on a 40nm trip to where dumping is legal. So, if all the locals and all the transients (UK, Europe, Caribbean, various other states) are apparently willing to dump inside 3nm when a pumpout isn’t readily available and it becomes very inconvenient to get outside to where dumping is legal, I can’t help but think that this random group of actual cruisers over many years is a better representation of cruisers behavior in general than is an Internet poll of CF members, many of whom have never had a similar experience or been in a position where they had to make that choice. If you really think that anything close to 60% of boaters located where a 3nm or more rule is in effect never dump illegally, then you clearly need to get out on the water more and open your eyes and ears.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by thinwater

In my creek observation would be useless. Nobody watching me would learn anything.



a. Pump-out boats service many in their slips.
b. I don't know where they are going.

c. The at sea pump out port is underwater.
d. Who pumps every time? I pumped about every 10th trip when day sailing, and not during every 2-4 day trip; I had a big tank.


You'd have to ask me. Or do like the Coast Guard and stop me once and a while and check the Y-valve. But I have a stack of cable ties.

In some situations such as yours I can see how it would be nearly impossible for an outsider to know what happens to your waste, but in some other situations it’s very easy to determine what’s going on when a boat with a couple or more living aboard doesn’t visit a working pumpout station or go outside the 3nm line for many days or weeks at a time. Either they are all composters or LectraSan owners or they’re dumping inside 3nm or they stop and go ashore whenever one of them feels the urge, or all have butt cheeks of steel and are holding it. My guess is there’s just a few composters and a few LectraSan owners and the rest are dumping inside 3nm.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

So the same guy who actually went so far as to start a poll to justify his own bias thinks it’s amusing that I’ve made conclusions based on my own 30+ years of first hand experience of having a cruising boat on the ocean and regularly being in touch with other cruisers? Interesting perspective….

I started the poll to try and see if the claim you and others made is valid. It doesn't jibe with my over 20 years of first-hand experience of having a cruising boat on the ocean and regularly being in touch with other cruisers. I've also cruised extensively in both NDZs (Great Lakes) and the Atlantic coast.

While the poll is indicating a majority operate within the rules, it also shows a significant minority follow their own wisdom. This easily fits with your observations. There is no need to be all huffy and insulting.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

There is no need to be all huffy and insulting.

So you didn't intend the following post of yours in a condescending and dismissive way? I found it to be rather insulting so next time perhaps check your mirror before handing out advice to others about their posts.

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

It's kinda amusing how you keep trying to find ways to justify your own personal beliefs, JT. The poll says what the poll says. It's not statistically significant, so it in no way can be taken as broad evidence. But it is better than someone claiming to know the truth based on their own personal experience.

You keep saying that this poll of yours is better than personal experience as if that's a fact but I think it's a lot like saying we should believe an unscientifically conducted Internet poll over our own lying eyes. I'm obviously not buying that but, just like I am, you're welcome to any "personal beliefs" you choose to hold dear regarding the validity of various sources of information. However, I can present a lot more evidence (and have) to support my opinion than you can present that suggests that this poll has any connection to the reality of actual cruisers behavior. My opinion is based on watching the behavior of countless boats over many years that are actually in the water, cruising, and talking to countless actual cruisers in actual boats, while the only qualification for participating in this poll is to have access to a computer and a logon to CF, which is somewhat better than if it was open to the general public, but not by a lot.

2 days ago I ran into an interesting, but very crusty old cruising couple at the fuel dock in an old Peterson 44. It was a very simple boat with only 100 gallon water tankage and a similar amount of fuel and they didn't have a watermaker so had to be very careful of their water usage. We joked that if neither one of them showered then neither would notice that the other hadn't. Not how I prefer to live, but I guess there's something to be said for simplicity since they had done a long, slow circumnavigation but have now "retired" to coastal cruising between Maine and the Bahamas, and said they were old friends with Larry Pardy (yet another illegal dumper). While we were talking about simplicity and with this CF conversation in mind, I pointed to the nearby pumpout and asked them if they knew it was broken. The old guy laughed and said they didn't even have a Y valve onboard. I'm not saying this old couple or their boat are typical, but they do represent a data point that is probably missing from your poll since I seriously doubt that they even own a computer.

[rwidman]

re: "While we were talking about simplicity and with this CF conversation in mind, I pointed to the nearby pumpout and asked them if they knew it was broken. The old guy laughed and said they didn't even have a Y valve onboard. I'm not saying this old couple or their boat are typical, but they do represent a data point that is probably missing from your poll since I seriously doubt that they even own a computer."

I have no Y valve either. My holding tank has two outlets, one to a deck fitting (for pumpout) and one leading to the macerator for overboard discharge.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by rwidman

re: "While we were talking about simplicity and with this CF conversation in mind, I pointed to the nearby pumpout and asked them if they knew it was broken. The old guy laughed and said they didn't even have a Y valve onboard. I'm not saying this old couple or their boat are typical, but they do represent a data point that is probably missing from your poll since I seriously doubt that they even own a computer."

I have no Y valve either. My holding tank has two outlets, one to a deck fitting (for pumpout) and one leading to the macerator for overboard discharge.

He was referring to a potential Y valve up stream of a potential holding tank, not the one downstream of a holding tank you are referring to. He was saying that direct overboard flushing 100% of the time was the only option on his old boat that he'd lived on full time for decades.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

He was referring to a potential Y valve up stream of a potential holding tank, not the one downstream of a holding tank you are referring to. He was saying that direct overboard flushing 100% of the time was the only option on his old boat that he'd lived on full time for decades.

That boat would have been illegal in the USA for the past 40 years or so.

Pumping a holding tank overboard inside the three mile limit is one thing, but pooping directly into the water seems pretty gross. Suppose you are at a marina or a public dock?

At least with a holding tank you can pump out where there are no people nearby.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

In some situations such as yours I can see how it would be nearly impossible for an outsider to know what happens to your waste, but in some other situations it’s very easy to determine what’s going on when a boat with a couple or more living aboard doesn’t visit a working pumpout station or go outside the 3nm line for many days or weeks at a time. Either they are all composters or LectraSan owners or they’re dumping inside 3nm or they stop and go ashore whenever one of them feels the urge, or all have butt cheeks of steel and are holding it. My guess is there’s just a few composters and a few LectraSan owners and the rest are dumping inside 3nm.

Live aboards, in most areas, are a microscopic part of the total boating population. They are conspicuous, and I agree there is truth in what you said above, but that contribution to the total would be less than 1% of boaters in the US, I am quite sure. In Annapolis, the harbor master checks on all anchored and moored boats, and a pump-out is mandatory about every 4-5 days. The marinas around here have similar requirements for all live aboards. In other areas I know it swings the other way.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by rwidman

That boat would have been illegal in the USA for the past 40 years or so.

Pumping a holding tank overboard inside the three mile limit is one thing, but pooping directly into the water seems pretty gross. Suppose you are at a marina or a public dock?

At least with a holding tank you can pump out where there are no people nearby.

I wasn't commenting on what's legal or how things should be in an ideal world, just what actually is in the real world.

I agree that flushing directly into a harbor seems pretty gross but it's a very common practice in caribbean charter boats and also apparently in the UK. It should probably be noted that neither place is known for having yucky water. Hopefully, in those places where flushing directly overboard is common practice, when at a dock the boaters use the marina facilities for solids rather than just flushing overboard.

I agree that a holding tank is a good compromise because it allows you to either pump out if that's possible/convenient or to dump somewhere that you deem appropriate once you are underway and well clear of beaches and swimmers and other boaters and oceanfront homes or anyone who might even notice that your sewage is present. Since the contents of a typical 25 gallon holding tank that's dumped underway at 7 knots at a Whale Gulpers rated output of 4.6gpm, will be spread over a distance of about 3,800', it's a pretty safe bet that such a thin trail will be so quickly diluted and dispersed that even someone trailing your boat quite close behind you would never be offended or even notice that you are dumping if your outlet is underwater.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

I wasn't commenting on what's legal or how things should be in an ideal world, just what actually is in the real world.

I agree that flushing directly into a harbor seems pretty gross but it's a very common practice in caribbean charter boats and also apparently in the UK. It should probably be noted that neither place is known for having yucky water. Hopefully, in those places where flushing directly overboard is common practice, when at a dock the boaters use the marina facilities for solids rather than just flushing overboard.

I agree that a holding tank is a good compromise because it allows you to either pump out if that's possible/convenient or to dump somewhere that you deem appropriate once you are underway and well clear of beaches and swimmers and other boaters and oceanfront homes or anyone who might even notice that your sewage is present. Since the contents of a typical 25 gallon holding tank that's dumped underway at 7 knots at a Whale Gulpers rated output of 4.6gpm, will be spread over a distance of about 3,800', it's a pretty safe bet that such a thin trail will be so quickly diluted and dispersed that even someone trailing your boat quite close behind you would never be offended or even notice that you are dumping if your outlet is underwater.

And of that 25 gallons, most of it is flush water. It's sewage of course once it's used to flush but it's diluted quite a bit.

I don't think anyone wants the QE II emptying its holding tanks in the town harbor, but a little poop from a few recreational boaters is pretty minor.

In my area, the county boat ramps have no facilities, not even an outhouse. It's unrealistic to think that hundreds of boaters are going out for eight or more hours on the water and not putting something overboard.

[Mike OReilly]

So, with 97 votes cast we have 59, or 61% operating within the law and 38, or 39% carving their own path.

Yes JT, you continue to amuse me. "The lady doth protest too much, methinks," seems apt here.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

I agree that flushing directly into a harbor seems pretty gross but it's a very common practice in caribbean charter boats...

My chartering experience is that the charter company made it very clear what should and should not go down the head, and where to dump and not to. So I don't have reason to believe that it's a common practice there. But we didn't go swimming in Roadtown Harbour, either...

it's a pretty safe bet that such a thin trail will be so quickly diluted and dispersed that even someone trailing your boat quite close behind you would never be offended or even notice that you are dumping if your outlet is underwater.

And again, my Caribbean experience is that the output from a small tank was visible, and I assume smellable, even when discharged while moving near hull speed, though I also believe it disperses in a few minutes.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Yes JT, you continue to amuse me. "The lady doth protest too much, methinks," seems apt here.

…you say yet again. But of course you repeating yourself isn’t “protesting too much.” Like I said before, take a peek in a mirror before posting anything else that best describes yourself more than anyone else.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

My chartering experience is that the charter company made it very clear what should and should not go down the head, and where to dump and not to. So I don't have reason to believe that it's a common practice there. But we didn't go swimming in Roadtown Harbour, either...

And again, my Caribbean experience is that the output from a small tank was visible, and I assume smellable, even when discharged while moving near hull speed, though I also believe it disperses in a few minutes.

Exactly. And my personal experience over two decades did not produce the kind of observations our friends says he has observed. Different data points of equal value. I've never suggested anyone is wrong. But this illustrates why personal observation is considered poor evidence.

But as I say to others, if you don't like this poll, start a better one. I'm happy to participate and even help promote it. I am data-driven, so show me the data.