Where do you dump?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

. . . I agree that flushing directly into a harbor seems pretty gross but it's a very common practice in caribbean charter boats and also apparently in the UK. It should probably be noted that neither place is known for having yucky water. Hopefully, in those places where flushing directly overboard is common practice, when at a dock the boaters use the marina facilities for solids rather than just flushing overboard. . .. .

How bad it is to flush directly into a harbour depends on whether the water moves or not. In Atlantic Europe, you very often have a couple knots (or more) of tidal current sweeping through the harbour (which makes for interesting docking maneuvers to those new in these waters, let me tell you). I guess in that case individual macerated flushes must be pretty harmless. If the water is still (like in the Baltic), however, I guess it's not only gross, but harmful to flush into a harbour.


In my experience UK sailors, although probably most UK harbours wouldn't be fouled by direct flushing, are very conscientious about using shore facilities in harbour. Kind of a matter of principle and good manners. This in a country with basically no rules, or almost no rules, and certainly no enforcement of any kind.

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[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

My chartering experience is that the charter company made it very clear what should and should not go down the head, and where to dump and not to. So I don't have reason to believe that it's a common practice there. But we didn't go swimming in Roadtown Harbour, either...

And again, my Caribbean experience is that the output from a small tank was visible, and I assume smellable, even when discharged while moving near hull speed, though I also believe it disperses in a few minutes.

Whether or not you “have reason to believe” that in harbor dumping is common in the Caribbean I can assure you it is. Whatever the briefer says is apparently forgotten or misconstrued by charter customers who have never owned a boat and have little or no familiarity with boat systems. I’ve personally chartered boats where you have no other choice but to flush directly into the ocean and I’ve seen it numerous times while snorkeling.

Unless you’re a sea kayaker being towed 10’ behind a sailboat there is absolutely no way you or anyone else can see or smell that small amount of sewage that’s being mixed in with countless millions of gallons all around it as the boat moves at 7 knots. I note that you say you “assume” it’s smellable because you’ve never smelled it yourself. So why do you “assume” others can? My own boat is a rare exception to this because the thru hull is about 2” above the waterline on the port side so it does smell bad if I dump the holding tank when level or on port tack, so that’s why I only dump on starboard tack whenever there’s adequate wind to sail so the outlet is under water which causes the sewage to be immediately mixed with copious amounts of salt water (10 ounces of sewage over 12’ of travel) so there is no odor. I have watched this outlet as the effluent from my holding tank flows out while I’m underway and it just looks like light brown water with no discernible chunks or sign of toilet paper and by the time it travels the 4’ or so to the transom there is already no sign of a brown streak in clear water.

[edlepera]

50 miles from nearest point of land

[Laxlife]

In the Chesapeake Bay we have plenty of pump out stations. Sewage spills are a major problem but boats are not the source. In 2020 Anne Arundel County (Annapolis) spilled 278,000 gallons of raw sewage into the Bay from its treatment plants. To date, 2021 is on-track to match that amount. These numbers are the best keep secret on the Bay. My sailing friends, yacht club members and county residents are shocked when they hear these statistics. And you never hear these numbers from the Bay’s protectors like Chesapeake Bay Foundation or the various River Keepers. Why is that? The solution is full funding of the relatively mundane civil engineering fixes to municipal infrastructure. It’s is NOT rocket science. County voters might need to pay $50 per year to finance these solutions. Count me in!

[JordanH]

I didn't read through the 9 pages of responses... but... are people really posting publicly that they are committing a crime? Even if they do it, that just smacks of a bad idea to post about it and admit to it publicly.


Food for thought for those of us that live in countries where dumping raw sewage is considered an illegal act.

[Networker]

I have an MSD 1 device so I dump anywhere. As long as it’s not a NDZ. Legally I can dump in the Marina, still trying to decide if that’s polite or not.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by JordanH

I didn't read through the 9 pages of responses... but... are people really posting publicly that they are committing a crime? Even if they do it, that just smacks of a bad idea to post about it and admit to it publicly.
.

And that is the reason that a "poll" like this cannot be even remotely accurate.

[Nepidae]

I usually dump in a toilet, but then what happens depends on several factors.

First, I am a CRUISING trawler. Trawlers generally have more options than a sailboat, so let me discuss.

Second, were you addressing 'Blue water' sailors in your question because there are many places where an NDZ has been established and discharge (dumping) violations in these areas can carry stringent penalties? Here (https://www.h2oinc.com/blog/types-of...n-devices-msds) are the different types of discharge, Type 1, 2 & 3.

Third, I also didn't see mentioned an MSD Type 1 which is an approved method of handling effluent from a boat (but not in an NDZ).

We have a large holding tank (75g) and a Type 1 MSD. We do have the ability to dump directly overboard but that hose is disconnected from the system that has a Y valve that allows discharge to the holding tank, Type 3 or the Type 1 MSD.

Something to consider, discharge in a marina. Since swimming in a marina is 'usually' prohibited a Type 1 or 3 discharge would be acceptable.

I just thought I'd mention another cruisers approach.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by Laxlife

In the Chesapeake Bay we have plenty of pump out stations. Sewage spills are a major problem but boats are not the source. In 2020 Anne Arundel County (Annapolis) spilled 278,000 gallons of raw sewage into the Bay from its treatment plants. To date, 2021 is on-track to match that amount. These numbers are the best keep secret on the Bay. My sailing friends, yacht club members and county residents are shocked when they hear these statistics. And you never hear these numbers from the Bay’s protectors like Chesapeake Bay Foundation or the various River Keepers. Why is that? The solution is full funding of the relatively mundane civil engineering fixes to municipal infrastructure. It’s is NOT rocket science. County voters might need to pay $50 per year to finance these solutions. Count me in!

It's not just the Chesapeake Bay. Laws against recreational boaters dumping sewage from their boats are "feel good" laws and they help politicians to get re-elected, but nearly every city and town in this country occasionally has an event where they dump raw sewage and it's usually thousands of gallons. These cities and towns aren't fined, people aren't fired, it's just covered up and happens again, often within a few months.

And of course, fish, birds and marine mammals are peeing and pooping in the waterways 24/7. Nobody is trying to stop them.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by Nepidae

...............
Something to consider, discharge in a marina. Since swimming in a marina is 'usually' prohibited a Type 1 or 3 discharge would be acceptable.

Divers often work in marinas so they should be given some consideration. But, nobody wants to see turds or wads of brown paper floating past their boats.

Marinas usually have heads. Use them. The walk is good for you.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by rwidman

And that is the reason that a "poll" like this cannot be even remotely accurate.

The poll is anonymous. No one is required to say anything, and clearly most who have voted have not.

[Laxlife]

Yes every municipality does it and voters are never given the explicit choice to fund the solution. I think the boating industry writ large avoids the issue so as not to scare off recreational consumers. Let’s not pick on Anne Arundel County. At least they have an email subscriber bit for spill alerts. Baltimore County loses millions of gallons and Prince Georges County lost 2.6 million gallons last year. PG County is one of the 10th wealthiest counties in the US. They could solve this if the voters made it a priority. It won’t be a voter issue if the facts remain hidden.

[lestersails]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

Unless you’re a sea kayaker being towed 10’ behind a sailboat there is absolutely no way you or anyone else can see or smell that small amount of sewage that’s being mixed in with countless millions of gallons all around it as the boat moves at 7 knots.

Clarification: Are you here referring to discharge of a single flush or discharge of a full holding tank?

[lestersails]

Originally Posted by Laxlife

Yes every municipality does it and voters are never given the explicit choice to fund the solution. I think the boating industry writ large avoids the issue so as not to scare off recreational consumers. Let’s not pick on Anne Arundel County. At least they have an email subscriber bit for spill alerts. Baltimore County loses millions of gallons and Prince Georges County lost 2.6 million gallons last year. PG County is one of the 10th wealthiest counties in the US. They could solve this if the voters made it a priority. It won’t be a voter issue if the facts remain hidden.

???
PG county is the 208th wealthiest county in the US by per capita income (out of over 3,000 counties). That is still plenty affluent overall, so I think the poster's point is generally valid, but nowhere near 10th wealthiest of counties.
Or maybe it was a typo and s/he meant top 10% of counties? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._capita_income

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Laxlife

Yes every municipality does it and voters are never given the explicit choice to fund the solution. I think the boating industry writ large avoids the issue so as not to scare off recreational consumers. Let’s not pick on Anne Arundel County. At least they have an email subscriber bit for spill alerts. Baltimore County loses millions of gallons and Prince Georges County lost 2.6 million gallons last year. PG County is one of the 10th wealthiest counties in the US. They could solve this if the voters made it a priority. It won’t be a voter issue if the facts remain hidden.

Some things to consider:

• Average municipal sewage is about 40-100 times more dilute than boat blackwater discharge (BOD 250 vs 8,000-26,000 based on many samples I have personally run--I consult for a company that treats this sort of wastewater). Domestic sewage includes laundry, showers, brushing teeth, flushing water, and storm water infiltration.
• Most of the spills occur during rain events, when storm water volumes overwhelm transfer pumps. This sewage is generally 200-1000 times more dilute than boat waste.

So your 2.6 million gallons is really more like 5,000-10,000 gallons of boater waste. That would be equivalent to maybe 50 boaters that don't use pump out stations. Spills are more concentrated because they are localized.



I agree with you re. funding. Sewage treatment and collection infrastructure is not glamorous but it is the best bang for the buck. But boaters are non-trivial, using your own (corrected) math.



Saying that someone else is speeding is never a defense.