135 Genoa vs 110 Yankee cut jib

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by wingssail

The OP's Legend 37 is an entirely different boat than your IP. His will benefit from a good working jib and a full main. The genoa adds little once the wind is over 10 -12 true (15 apparent) due to heeling and overpowering the rudder.

As for the code zero, the polars for most code zero designs show much reduced wind angle ranges than you are able to get from yours, so good for you that you have such a capable sail.

His boat will go fastest on a close reach and sail well quite close to the wind. An apparent wind angle of 30 is about 45 true wind angle. His boat can easily sail effectively at 28 apparent (under 40 TWA) with a good, small, headsail.
The code zeros for most boats are effective from 110 TWA (80 AWA) to 180 TWA. At 70 TWA, (48 AWA) the speed is effectively halved. A modern code zero made for a top down roller furler and almost as flat as a genoa, is still better only on wider wind angles.

My recommendation for a Hunter Legend 37 would be a full main with 3 reefs, a 110% working jib cut for performance and with foam on the luff, and an asymmetrical for downwind work. Different boats have different needs.

The only disagreement I have with the above is the assymetrical.

I have both a assymetrical and a code zero and had a great chance to compare them to each other over the last 3400nm passage, I was bored so deliberately changed them around several times just to look at performance.

Now of course my sailing ability has a bearing on the results, I'm no racer BUT the same level of skill or lack of was applied evenly to both sails in exactly the same conditions.

The code zero is a winner! It's in a furler where the assymetrical is in a sock.

The code zero to me is a much more versatile sail. Much easier to use (mainly due to the furler and only rarely did the assymetrical out perform it, they were fairly similar in performance. When the assymetrical did give slightly better performance it was marginal.

The assymetrical looks cool the code zero on a furler is just easier to use, easier to store and works more effectively over a greater wind angle including ddw using the boom to pole it out, jib other side and main up.

Once again just my opinion.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by daletournier

My 2 cents worth.

135% is trying to be everything yet ends up being nothing.

To heavy for light wind , poor shape once furled going to windward and terrible furled in heavy weather forward of the beam.

Often theres little advantage going bigger on a cruising sailboat.

I will attest to this. We have a 141% genoa on a masthead rig. I believe the Hunter is 7/8ths rig, so slightly different and likely a larger main to provide drive.

However, the 141% genoa sail fails. In order to be strong enough for F6/7 furled etc, it is made from 7.5oz material, but in light winds particularly down wind because the shape is low aspect the weight of the sail towards the leach plus the sacrificial sun strip causes the sail to collapse. Fine going to windward, or a beam reach, but poor down wind or a run. Its now 9 years old, so likely to be replaced in a few years time. Then I will be looking for a 120% max genoa and accept some slight loss in light airs. We have an asymmetrical for light winds.

As Dale said, you can't have a sail for all conditions.

Pete

[roland stockham]

If you want more sail and flexibility have you considered going to twin head sails? Not sure of your current sail plan bu a lot of 80's boats had the mast stepped well back with a large fore tryangle the easily converts to a cutter rig. If this is the case adding a stay sail at 60% mast height and with about 115% overlap and then a high cut jib , again with some overlap will give at least as much drive as a 115% genoa and the flexibility to simply drop or roll away the jib when reefing. Makes a very good solution when hove too or sail if it is rough as you don't move the center of effort forward when reefing. Down side is do loose a little on pointing and add more tackle.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by daletournier

The only disagreement I have with the above is the assymetrical.

I have both a assymetrical and a code zero and had a great chance to compare them to each other over the last 3400nm passage, I was bored so deliberately changed them around several times just to look at performance.

Now of course my sailing ability has a bearing on the results, I'm no racer BUT the same level of skill or lack of was applied evenly to both sails in exactly the same conditions.

The code zero is a winner! It's in a furler where the assymetrical is in a sock.

The code zero to me is a much more versatile sail. Much easier to use (mainly due to the furler and only rarely did the assymetrical out perform it, they were fairly similar in performance. When the assymetrical did give slightly better performance it was marginal.

The assymetrical looks cool the code zero on a furler is just easier to use, easier to store and works more effectively over a greater wind angle including ddw using the boom to pole it out, jib other side and main up.

Once again just my opinion.

Very Interesting!

[Paul Howard]

If you are fore-reaching too much when hove-to, you have too much mainsail up or it is sheeted too close to the centreline.
Try either slacking the mainsheet further out or tuck in another reef.
Remember that when hove-to you should have the same sail area up as if you were sailing.
Many people heave-to when the boat becomes difficult to manage in a rising wind, thus having too much sail area up for the increased wind.
I always heave-to to reef so the mainsail luffs behind the backed jib. makes it much easier.
One needs very little mainsail up as the actual area of a backed jib presented to the wind on a fractional rig boat is quite small. I have sailed many Hunters (though never owned one) and their large mainsails easily overpower the small (by comparison) jib.

[slug]

Originally Posted by daletournier

The only disagreement I have with the above is the assymetrical.

I have both a assymetrical and a code zero and had a great chance to compare them to each other over the last 3400nm passage, I was bored so deliberately changed them around several times just to look at performance.

Now of course my sailing ability has a bearing on the results, I'm no racer BUT the same level of skill or lack of was applied evenly to both sails in exactly the same conditions.

The code zero is a winner! It's in a furler where the assymetrical is in a sock.

The code zero to me is a much more versatile sail. Much easier to use (mainly due to the furler and only rarely did the assymetrical out perform it, they were fairly similar in performance. When the assymetrical did give slightly better performance it was marginal.

The assymetrical looks cool the code zero on a furler is just easier to use, easier to store and works more effectively over a greater wind angle including ddw using the boom to pole it out, jib other side and main up.

Once again just my opinion.

More and more boats are eliminating the code zero and sailing with a “ tweener”
This sail is more versatile and it construction is a bit more robust
When it comes time to replace your code zero have a chat with your sailmaker

https://bermudarace.com/large-roach-headsails-allowed-orr-2018/

https://www.offshoreracingrule.org/63-2019-news/161-not-a-genoa-not-a-spinnaker-it-s-a-tweener

[bensolomon]

Originally Posted by roland stockham

If you want more sail and flexibility have you considered going to twin head sails? Not sure of your current sail plan bu a lot of 80's boats had the mast stepped well back with a large fore tryangle the easily converts to a cutter rig. If this is the case adding a stay sail at 60% mast height and with about 115% overlap and then a high cut jib , again with some overlap will give at least as much drive as a 115% genoa and the flexibility to simply drop or roll away the jib when reefing. Makes a very good solution when hove too or sail if it is rough as you don't move the center of effort forward when reefing. Down side is do loose a little on pointing and add more tackle.

Thanks for this suggestion, but it's not practical for me. I certainly admire cutter Rigs and Rigs with stay sales.

[bensolomon]

Originally Posted by Paul Howard

If you are fore-reaching too much when hove-to, you have too much mainsail up or it is sheeted too close to the centreline.
Try either slacking the mainsheet further out or tuck in another reef.
Remember that when hove-to you should have the same sail area up as if you were sailing.
Many people heave-to when the boat becomes difficult to manage in a rising wind, thus having too much sail area up for the increased wind.
I always heave-to to reef so the mainsail luffs behind the backed jib. makes it much easier.
One needs very little mainsail up as the actual area of a backed jib presented to the wind on a fractional rig boat is quite small. I have sailed many Hunters (though never owned one) and their large mainsails easily overpower the small (by comparison) jib.

Thank you for your input. Now that I have a new mainsail, it is much easier to reef. You are correct in that when I'm heaving to i already have too much sail area up. I will drop the traveler next time when I heave to see if she holds position better. Definitely a trial-and-error situation.

[bensolomon]

Really appreciate everybody's input and comments. You have helped me a great deal. I'm going to order a 110 jib but but order it with the clue approximately 4 feet above the track. Currently my clew is approximately 8 ft above the track and I think this is too high. I have been happy with my boat's performance, but I think with the addition of a new jib and slightly more sail area by dropping the Clew by four feet, I think I will be very happy.

Sincerest thanks,
Ben

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by slug

More and more boats are eliminating the code zero and sailing with a “ tweener”
This sail is more versatile and it construction is a bit more robust
When it comes time to replace your code zero have a chat with your sailmaker

https://bermudarace.com/large-roach-...owed-orr-2018/

https://www.offshoreracingrule.org/6...it-s-a-tweener

Never heard if a tweener, I'll look into it.

Really a cruising code zero is just a big light Genoa, , maybe originalracing code zeros were different?

[CarlF]

Your plan for a lower clew is great. But before you order test visibility by rigging a line to simulate the foot. Sit at your normal helm position and see how it obstructs your view of approaching boats. I doubt it will be a problem but it would be a shame to constantly have to duck to see under it. Also talk to the sailmaker about where the sheet block will need to be.

I once had a boat where I always started with a reef tied in. I’d only shake it out if I got out there and found no wind. If your current first reef is too much sail reduction, it’s cheap to have another reefing point put in. Sailing with a small reef has three advantages 1) less area 2) lower center of effort 3) flatter sail since the reef takes out some of the draft along the boom. Racing boats often have a 6” reef called a “flattening reef”

What cloth will you use? Even with a small sail like a jib this makes a big performance difference. Woven dacron still lasts much longer and there isn’t mildew risk but it does stretch more. Not all woven Dacron is the same. This page from Mack Sails explains (I have Marblehead cloth sails from Mack and love them). http://macksails.com/sail-cloth/

Finally, going upwind, partially furling your jib should be the last resort. Go to a 2nd reef in the main first (assuming the helm stays reasonably balanced)

[sck5]

On my old boat I had a 110 and a 140. The 110 was bought for ocean passages to and from the Eastern Caribe. It worked very well for that and for Caribbean conditions. When I got back to Chesapeake Bay I used the 110 for spring and fall sailing. The 140 was much better during the summer when winds are often very light