135 Genoa vs 110 Yankee cut jib

[bensolomon]

Good morning! I am evaluating purchasing a new head sail. I have a 1990 Hunter legend 37.5 with a 110% Yankee cut jib. The jib is at the end of her natural life span and needs to be replaced. I've been happy with the performance of my boat so far with the current setup. I am, however, considering getting a 135 Genoa. I have mobile headsail track cars, that are easily movable underway and under load so that won't be an issue for me.

I am a fan of heaving to in heavier weather, and she does this adequately, but continues to fore reach. This might be, perhaps, a reason I would think about changing to the 135 Genoa.

I've sailed from the Chesapeake to New England and back a couple of times in this boat with the current configuration. She does quite well. In addition, she is a bit tender and is easily overpowered which is one of the reasons I am swinging away from getting a fuller Genoa. Also, I am concerned that a new head sale may not trim as well given the current Genoa car layout. I'm planning on sailing from the Chesapeake to the Bahamas, most likely single-handed.

I would appreciate the opinions on changing changing from a 110 jib to a full Genoa or keeping current configuration. I already have an asymmetrical Spinnaker.

Thank you,
Ben

[Bill O]

Ben,
How is the performance w/the 110? If I remember correctly, your boat has a good sized main and still worked well w/ a 110.


If the 110 is working for you, would stick with that one. If you want/need extra performance in light air then maybe the 135. Biggest downside to the bigger sail is reefing. While you could reef it smaller, the 2nd reef in the 135 would be ~100-110. Is that small enough when you heave to?

[AKA-None]

Reefed headsails don’t flow as well particularly if it is cut full.
I rarely use my genny and when offshore racing we do a lot of headsail changes due to poor performance of reefed headsails.
Ymmv depending on how you sail. Last race was a 40 hunter and the above was true for that boat.

[a64pilot]

If the boat Is quite tender and easily overpowered, you will not be happy with a 135.
You’ll also lose a bit of windward performance, and even if you get it with foam it won’t work as well reefed as a 110 not reefed.
My boat is not tender and easily overpowered, so I did go from a 110 to a 135, I did it mostly to gain light wind performance, but it was not a good choice as the sail was too heavy to be useful in light wind.
I ended up with a Code Zero for light wind and the 135 is sitting in the sail loft right now getting cut down to a 110.

[bensolomon]

Bill O, AKA, and a64pilot,

Thank you for your replies. They were very helpful. I had been leaning towards keeping my current yankee cut 110, and you helped solidify that decision. Regarding her tenderness, even in 18 knots, I have to reef to keep her on her feet, even more-so when the admiral is on board. Here is a small piece of video from last week (sustained wind 14-17 knots with some 20 knot gusts) as I was putting the new mail through its paces (including halyard tension and changing the reefing line configuration-----the second reef clew was too high). You can see that even in that little bit of breeze, she is reefed, and at one point, double reefed main and jib (admiral came on board the second day). No doubt, the 135 would overpower her. Also, I also had a new headstay and furler placed due to the original one becoming unusable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAAx5nx309I&t=6s

Thank you, again, for your opinions!!

Ben

[wingssail]

You have an excellent sailing boat. It is not really overly tender just because you need to consider reefing at 18knots of true wind, (we have the same situation) and reefing the main is easy anyhow.

Stay with the 110% size but get a good one, a high quality sail, with as low of a clew as you can with the roller furling. This will improve your light air performance but you can still keep the boat on it's feet in a bit of breeze.

Honestly, with a 135%, your performance will decrease. That sail will not be good partially rolled up. But with a 110% and a reefed main you will sail well, the boat and the admiral will be happy, even into the 20's.

If you covet light air, add a code zero.

[bensolomon]

Wingsail,

Thank you for your input! The last part of the discussion is Yankee cut or not. On the busy Chesapeake Bay, being able to see under the jib is crucial. I have been thinking about a code zero for light air, as well. My boat goes very well in light air as it is. How much additional benefit do you think a full cut 110 jib would be versus keeping the 110 Yankee cut and getting a code zero?

Thanks,
Ben

[slug]

Originally Posted by bensolomon

Good morning! I am evaluating purchasing a new head sail. I have a 1990 Hunter legend 37.5 with a 110% Yankee cut jib. The jib is at the end of her natural life span and needs to be replaced. I've been happy with the performance of my boat so far with the current setup. I am, however, considering getting a 135 Genoa. I have mobile headsail track cars, that are easily movable underway and under load so that won't be an issue for me.

I am a fan of heaving to in heavier weather, and she does this adequately, but continues to fore reach. This might be, perhaps, a reason I would think about changing to the 135 Genoa.

I've sailed from the Chesapeake to New England and back a couple of times in this boat with the current configuration. She does quite well. In addition, she is a bit tender and is easily overpowered which is one of the reasons I am swinging away from getting a fuller Genoa. Also, I am concerned that a new head sale may not trim as well given the current Genoa car layout. I'm planning on sailing from the Chesapeake to the Bahamas, most likely single-handed.

I would appreciate the opinions on changing changing from a 110 jib to a full Genoa or keeping current configuration. I already have an asymmetrical Spinnaker.

Thank you,
Ben

For ocean sailing the yankee is a winner

A yankee , with its short leech , provides superior reaching and running ( poled out ) performance

A yankee , with its high clew , roller reefs well

A yankee and a staysail is the gold standard for cruisers

Upwind performance is compromised when compared to a long leech sail.. Genoa

It’s up to you

Impossible to have a one sail inventory

Perhaps ask the sailmaker to create a 110% yankee like sail with a longer leech , lower clew . Half way between a Genoa and a yankee

[Cheechako]

It sounds like the 110 is good for that boat. My best headsails for blu water were about 115% but slightly high cut clew, not a Yankee though. The clew was cut so I could just reach it standing on deck to allow visibility. Do you really have a yankee now or just a normal 110%?
Here's a typical Yankee: (The sail in my avatar is the 115% for comparison)

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by bensolomon

Wingsail,

Thank you for your input! The last part of the discussion is Yankee cut or not. On the busy Chesapeake Bay, being able to see under the jib is crucial. I have been thinking about a code zero for light air, as well. My boat goes very well in light air as it is. How much additional benefit do you think a full cut 110 jib would be versus keeping the 110 Yankee cut and getting a code zero?

Thanks,
Ben

If the 110% is serviceable stay with it as long as you can. When you replace it I would recommend a lower clew, more performance oriented sail, but that is just me, I am performance oriented. The lower clew (mine go right to the deck) will restrict your visibility and are not as good when in heavy weather when rough seas come aboard. In those conditions I am using a 85% high clew sail. I have multiple sails to choose from and I am not reluctant to change them therefore I can set a sail which is close to perfect for any condition. Perhaps in your case a normal 110% working sail, not a yankee, is a good compromise.

If you get a code zero it will be more expensive and will be an offwind sail anyhow.

A better 110% and a code zero will, at times, will reward you with better performance, BUT ONLY in a few situations. For most of your sailing you will, as you say, go well in light air, without them. But if you can tolerate the compromises inherent with a high performance 110%, it will probably amaze you with what it can do in the under 15 knot conditions.

[a64pilot]

I can run my code zero from 40 degrees apparent to 180, Genoa until 30, but at 30 your not sailing very well at all, so I only lose 10 degrees with the Code zero, and I’m not running DDW with the Genoa unless poled out.
Anytime the wind is less than 12 kts or so, the code zero is the sail to use, and I can carry it up to 20 kts, past that and you may blow it out.
All wind numbers are apparent.
So for us, just about always the code zero is the go to sail, winds above 20 kts, if I’m out it’s because of a missed forecast, if I know the winds will be over 20 kts we don’t usually go.

The Code Zero is far more useful than I thought it would be. However you end up taking it down and putting it up often. I have considered a deck bag to out it in when I know we will be anchored somewhere for a week or more, but haven’t done that yet.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by slug

For ocean sailing the yankee is a winner

A yankee , with its short leech , provides superior reaching and running ( poled out ) performance

A yankee , with its high clew , roller reefs well

A yankee and a staysail is the gold standard for cruisers

Upwind performance is compromised when compared to a long leech sail.. Genoa

It’s up to you

Impossible to have a one sail inventory

Perhaps ask the sailmaker to create a 110% yankee like sail with a longer leech , lower clew . Half way between a Genoa and a yankee

"Perhaps ask the sailmaker to create a 110% yankee like sail with a longer leech , lower clew . Half way between a Genoa and a yankee"

Yes.

But the boats you have pictured are not using yankee's. Look at the white boat. It is a sloop. It is reaching, the sails are well eased. Look at how much twist is evident in the headsail. That is likely a normal working jib, not a yankee.

The idea that a yankee and a staysail combination is the gold standard for cruisers is old fashioned and does not apply to modern boats anymore than the concept that only a full keel heavy boat is a "blue water" boat. Modern sloops are now the standard for cruising, and staysails are not needed, nor yankee's.

Check out the X-boat in the photo. It is a fractional rigged boat with a smallish headsail. That boat can deal with increasing wind by reefing the main and the small headsail can be reduced by rolling it in. In higher winds conditions the headsail can be rolled all the way in and the main successively reefed until it is on a deep third reef, and the boat will still sail well and handle easily. This is the direction for cruising boats.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I can run my code zero from 40 degrees apparent to 180, Genoa until 30, but at 30 your not sailing very well at all, so I only lose 10 degrees with the Code zero, and I’m not running DDW with the Genoa unless poled out.
Anytime the wind is less than 12 kts or so, the code zero is the sail to use, and I can carry it up to 20 kts, past that and you may blow it out.
All wind numbers are apparent.
So for us, just about always the code zero is the go to sail, winds above 20 kts, if I’m out it’s because of a missed forecast, if I know the winds will be over 20 kts we don’t usually go.

The Code Zero is far more useful than I thought it would be. However you end up taking it down and putting it up often. I have considered a deck bag to out it in when I know we will be anchored somewhere for a week or more, but haven’t done that yet.

The OP's Legend 37 is an entirely different boat than your IP. His will benefit from a good working jib and a full main. The genoa adds little once the wind is over 10 -12 true (15 apparent) due to heeling and overpowering the rudder.

As for the code zero, the polars for most code zero designs show much reduced wind angle ranges than you are able to get from yours, so good for you that you have such a capable sail.

His boat will go fastest on a close reach and sail well quite close to the wind. An apparent wind angle of 30 is about 45 true wind angle. His boat can easily sail effectively at 28 apparent (under 40 TWA) with a good, small, headsail.
The code zeros for most boats are effective from 110 TWA (80 AWA) to 180 TWA. At 70 TWA, (48 AWA) the speed is effectively halved. A modern code zero made for a top down roller furler and almost as flat as a genoa, is still better only on wider wind angles.

My recommendation for a Hunter Legend 37 would be a full main with 3 reefs, a 110% working jib cut for performance and with foam on the luff, and an asymmetrical for downwind work. Different boats have different needs.

[Stu Jackson]

I agree with staying with the 110.


Here's why:


A very illuminating and interesting discussion on co.com for those of you who might be in the market for a new jib.

http://forums.catalina.sailboatowner...d.php?t=155362

Please read all three pages. Enjoy.

[daletournier]

My 2 cents worth.

135% is trying to be everything yet ends up being nothing.

To heavy for light wind , poor shape once furled going to windward and terrible furled in heavy weather forward of the beam.

100% high clew for windward work is awesone, rarely need to put a wrap in it , just reef the main.

I also have a code zero like A64 but I agree with wingsail, it comes down before 50 awa , the better headsail shape more than makes up for the size of the code zero.

Also, imho autopilots dont like 135%. I furl/reef and choose sail only when the autopilot says it's ok.

I actually now have 110% up front as I like the little bit extra when poling out dw, 110% imho is the best compromise. With the 110% I can put a couple if wraps in it without badly effecting shape, thus getting it down to the 100% that I do like alot.

Often theres little advantage going bigger on a cruising sailboat.