Acquiring A Ready Made Series Drogue

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Really? I've done it in force 8 repeatedly in testing and it was easy. Remember, the bridle is on the winches at this point, not cleats. The trick it to have an extension of the rode in the cockpit. Just add the next section, complete with bridle and then cast the old bridle off. A child would be strong enough.

(Oops. Just read Evan's post. What he said too.)

In force 7-8 conditions the load on the drogue will be similar to genoa sheeting loads in the peaks and far less in the lulls. There is no risk to primary winches (Evan and I have both measured this--we're not guessing). That is based on winch working load, not mountings, which should be far stronger, so long as you switch to a tug boat hitch, which is simple.

Would I switch to cleats or chain plates in a survival storm? Simply rig the last bridle that way. But that's irrelevant to any cruising I will do.

Try it and then practice in stronger conditions. Drogues require practice. Like anything, your boat will teach you the tricks.

Getting the drogues back in is harder.

So you would trust cleats and or winches for bridle attachment points? Up to what conditions? I'm not disagreeing with you and actually agree if chafe can be avoided. It sure looks like you agree that designing for survival conditions is not necessary for most cruisers.

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by thinwater

That is my understanding. You can look it up in the World Sailing Offshore Rule, if you are curious. It has been well-demonstrated. It is also by far the simplest to rig in poor conditions. Sailing to windward is limited, but other courses are practical. IF you have fuel for the engine it is very simple.

4.15

This is what the rule says: A proven method of emergency steering with the rudder disabled.
Vague at best and open for interpretation IMHO.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

This is what the rule says: A proven method of emergency steering with the rudder disabled.
Vague at best and open for interpretation IMHO.

I disagree, if you have proved your chosen method steers your vessel then I suggest it is neither vague or open to interpretation!

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

So you would trust cleats and or winches for bridle attachment points? Up to what conditions? I'm not disagreeing with you and actually agree if chafe can be avoided. It sure looks like you agree that designing for survival conditions is not necessary for most cruisers.

The thread is about JSDs. What you need depends on the sailing you do.

What I said is that there is no reason to design a JSD for less than survival conditions, because if it is less than that, there are better tools available.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

This is what the rule says: A proven method of emergency steering with the rudder disabled.
Vague at best and open for interpretation IMHO.

Drogues are accepted for the Newport-Bermuda race.

Take your boat out and try it. You can find instructions on-line.

https://www.practical-sailor.com/iss...r_12221-1.html

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

Sounds very difficult in poor conditions.

Well, (one of ) the difference between you and I, is that I have actually done it - no problem at all

Using a winch to take up tension on the spare bridle arm to unload the main rode requires the winch to bear that load. Not sure the winch can handle that and it certainly wasn't recommended for the JSD by Jordan.

We are just talking about a single element (speed limiting) drogue at that point, and at worst case (surfing) the rode load was just about exactly our max #3 jib sheet load, so the genoa winch was in fact well sized and speced for it.

I think it needs to be stupid simple to be relied upon in serious conditions.

As I said in my post, there are various options for doing this procedure. The one I outlined is the one we settled on as best after trying several. We did try one which was perhaps 'simpler' and theoretically stronger, using a spliced-in bridle and our jsd chainplates (we had them welded into out aluminum hull). The only downside of this approach was you needed to cut the 'offside' bridle arm (where it connected to the chainplate) to release it when you wanted to let out the second drogue. I did that, with 3500lbs on the bridle a couple times and it worked ok, the snap back took the bridle arm straight away from the boat. But we ended up liking the approach I described above better, and it never gave us any strength or handling concerns.

..............

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Drogues are accepted for the Newport-Bermuda race.

Take your boat out and try it. You can find instructions on-line.

https://www.practical-sailor.com/iss...r_12221-1.html

The link is behind a paywall.

This is severe thread drift, but since we're talking about it, Thinwater, how would you go about sizing a steering drogue?

Trial and error will be expensive.

[estarzinger]

btw dock - re another of your threads combined with drogue thinking - there is some merit to a secondary purpose of the gale rider drogue - eg using it to lift MOB back on board. It is a huge webbing net, with a wire rim. Can be used to scoop up a mob and lift them. We tried it in calm water, worked fine - not sure how it would work in difficult conditions, but better than a lifesling if the MOB has been incapacitated in any way (partial hypothermia, or just really scared, for instance).

Im not sure if they are still making the galerider thou . . . seem to remember that small sail loft went out of business, but perhaps someone else picked up the product.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

btw dock - re another of your threads combined with drogue thinking - there is some merit to a secondary purpose of the gale rider drogue - eg using it to lift MOB back on board. It is a huge webbing net, with a wire rim. Can be used to scoop up a mob and lift them. We tried it in calm water, worked fine - not sure how it would work in difficult conditions, but better than a lifesling if the MOB has been incapacitated in any way (partial hypothermia, or just really scared, for instance).

Im not sure if they are still making the galerider thou . . . seem to remember that small sail loft went out of business, but perhaps someone else picked up the product.

Thanks; hot tip!

And same question to you as I asked thinwater - how would you size a steering drogue?

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

And same question to you as I asked thinwater - how would you size a steering drogue?

Thin is probably better able to answer that.

My solution to the 'lost steering' problem was to make our main rudder 'unbreakable'. This is possible on a custom boat. We 'tested' it a couple times banging it real hard into rocks and it could be dented and deflected but not broken

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

Thin is probably better able to answer that.

My solution to the 'lost steering' problem was to make our main rudder 'unbreakable'. This is possible on a custom boat. We 'tested' it a couple times banging it real hard into rocks and it could be dented and deflected but not broken

Good plan for the next boat

But for now I need some kind of backup steering. A pintle-mounted spare would be a nice solution but not possible on my boat since I have a folding transom platform and davits in the way.

I wonder if anyone has tried a steering oar like the ancient Greek ships had? That would seem to be far easier to rig.

I think a drogue is the best backup steering for my situation, but I have no idea how to size it. I am guessing that it should not be too big and that it might actually be rather small. But I don't want to spend the time and money to do it by trial and error.

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

Thin is probably better able to answer that.

My solution to the 'lost steering' problem was to make our main rudder 'unbreakable'. This is possible on a custom boat. We 'tested' it a couple times banging it real hard into rocks and it could be dented and deflected but not broken

Great solution. Prevention is always better than jury rigged temp solutions.

[Don C L]

I like the idea of pintles added, but how low is your freeboard back there? And is the stern plumb? I like the sweep oar idea too and it has the advantage of slowing you to yank the stern around in close quarters if needed. But for a larger boat hmmm not so sure. We use big sweep oats on the large rafts on the Salmon river and if you aren’t careful you can get yourself launched into space. But for steering only, I can see it... worth a shot.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Don C L

I like the idea of pintles added, but how low is your freeboard back there? And is the stern plumb? I like the sweep oar idea too and it has the advantage of slowing you to yank the stern around in close quarters if needed. But for a larger boat hmmm not so sure. We use big sweep oats on the large rafts on the Salmon river and if you aren’t careful you can get yourself launched into space. But for steering only, I can see it... worth a shot.

Pintles won't work on my boat - I have a folding transom platform.

As to the oar - I didn't mean a sweep oar, but rather a steering oar, which is fixed and rotates. I don't think it would work on my boat, but I was just curious whether anyone had tried it.

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Good plan for the next boat

But for now I need some kind of backup steering. A pintle-mounted spare would be a nice solution but not possible on my boat since I have a folding transom platform and davits in the way.

I wonder if anyone has tried a steering oar like the ancient Greek ships had? That would seem to be far easier to rig.

I think a drogue is the best backup steering for my situation, but I have no idea how to size it. I am guessing that it should not be too big and that it might actually be rather small. But I don't want to spend the time and money to do it by trial and error.

I think the pintle mounted spare would be impossible to install in anything but dead calm seas. Even in small dinghies it's nearly impossible without getting in the water and even then if you hook one pintle and not the other the rudder can twist off the hooked one. Can't help you with sizing but would like to know also.
I'm still in favor of dead simple solutions. Most accidents involve a chain of human errors that seem simple but in trying conditions don't turn out that way.