Adding a drifter to the sail inventory with a furled headsail

[Marathon1150]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Simplify, simplify, simplify.

Adding new rigging components for a rare occasion is going the wrong direction.

Keep it simple.

Agreed. And I didn't even mention the running backstays which always seem to be in the wrong place.

[argonauta1]

We had a Profurl furler and 120% genoa on our Beneteau 440. In addition, we had a free flying Down Wind Sail (DWS) which we referred to as the "big drifter". It came within a sleeve and was hoisted by a separate halyard. In good DW sailing conditions, we would pole out the genoa to the slightly windward side of the rig and have the big drifter flying on the downwind side. So wing on wing worked like a damn!. The sock made easy the ergonomics in getting the DWS hoisted and flying. Dowsing was simple so long as one headed up a bit.

[SofaKingFishy]

ATN Tacker & a Code 0 in a chute. Easy & relatively cheap

[Hasbeen]

I had a 125% drifter made for my 40Ft Morgan Giles sloop, while sailing in northern New Guinea & Islands to the north & east, where light winds are the norm.


Made of 3 Oz Terylene it had a wire luff, & was only for use in up to 5 knot winds. It was always set flying, & was my favorite sail in those doldrum waters.

[jalmberg]

I’m going through the same thought process as you for my boat. I have a second head stay right next to the one the furler is on. The problem is that the sheets on the furled sail make it difficult to use a hank on sail, except as a twin. So that’s what I use it for, when running.

Otherwise I have an asymmetric in a sock which I deploy outside the job sheets. It can’t be tacked and I never gybe it. I only use one sheet, and snuff and redeploy on the other tack if necessary.

Not sure what other options will work as long as you have a jib with sheets on the furler blocking the fore triangle.

[wingssail]

You could call it a code 0, or a drifter, or a flat cut asymmetrical, but the OP's query seemed to indicate an upwind (sort of) sail.

So, short of changing sails which is apparently out of the question, I'd propose a torsion luff rope code zero with a furler on it, or just a wire or rope luff drifter without a furler which is tacked ahead of the head stay, on a short sprit if need be, and hoisted tight on a spinnaker halyard (if there was ever a time for a dyneema halyard, this is it.)

For upwind sailing (or close reaching) you are going to have to roll it up to tack it.

For offwind sailing it is definitely possible to gybe it outside. Even double handed we gybe our asymmetrical spinnakers mostly without issue. A flat spinnaker, such as what would be called an A3, is actually quite useful for reaching with the apparent wind far forward (approximately 45 degrees). We use ours without a sock or furler.

But our approach to cruising is different than most cruisers. We change headsails. If the wind looks to be over 10 knots we put up a working jib. If the wind is lighter than that we put up a small genoa. Occasionally we will change sails if the conditions change. We don't have a headsail furler. The genoa is good in light air.

If we are going off the wind we set a spinnaker. Currently we are using an asymmetrical with two sheets, tacked to the bow inside the pulpit and ahead of the headstay, without a sock. It goes up and down and gybes quickly and without issue.

This fits with two of our philosophies, 1. keep it simple at all cost and 2. accept that sailing is work, always has been, and that is OK.

For those who wish to operate their sailboat from a lazy boy chair back by the helm, your approach is different than ours and we can't really give you any advice for how best to do that.

[jalmberg]

Originally Posted by wingssail

You could call it a code 0, or a drifter, or a flat cut asymmetrical, but the OP's query seemed to indicate an upwind (sort of) sail.

So, short of changing sails which is apparently out of the question, I'd propose a torsion luff rope code zero with a furler on it, or just a wire or rope luff drifter without a furler which is tacked ahead of the head stay, on a short sprit if need be, and hoisted tight on a spinnaker halyard (if there was ever a time for a dyneema halyard, this is it.)

For upwind sailing (or close reaching) you are going to have to roll it up to tack it.

For offwind sailing it is definitely possible to gybe it outside. Even double handed we gybe our asymmetrical spinnakers mostly without issue. A flat spinnaker, such as what would be called an A3, is actually quite useful for reaching with the apparent wind far forward (approximately 45 degrees). We use ours without a sock or furler.

But our approach to cruising is different than most cruisers. We change headsails. If the wind looks to be over 10 knots we put up a working jib. If the wind is lighter than that we put up a small genoa. Occasionally we will change sails if the conditions change. We don't have a headsail furler. The genoa is good in light air.

If we are going off the wind we set a spinnaker. Currently we are using an asymmetrical with two sheets, tacked to the bow inside the pulpit and ahead of the headstay, without a sock. It goes up and down and gybes quickly and without issue.

This fits with two of our philosophies, 1. keep it simple at all cost and 2. accept that sailing is work, always has been, and that is OK.

For those who wish to operate their sailboat from a lazy boy chair back by the helm, your approach is different than ours and we can't really give you any advice for how best to do that.

Changing headsails is clearly the optimum sailing solution, especially as it avoids the problem of having a blocked fore triangle because of fixed sheets from the furler.

However, there are many, if not most, cruisers for whom fatigue is a big concern while cruising. It’s not laziness but the simple fact that when you hit a certain age it takes longer to recover from a lot of physical work.

You will get there too someday, so plan ahead 😊

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by jalmberg

Changing headsails is clearly the optimum sailing solution, especially as it avoids the problem of having a blocked fore triangle because of fixed sheets from the furler.

However, there are many, if not most, cruisers for whom fatigue is a big concern while cruising. It’s not laziness but the simple fact that when you hit a certain age it takes longer to recover from a lot of physical work.

You will get there too someday, so plan ahead 😊

We are already there. I'm close to 76 and my spouse is 72. Sailing is hard for us too, but we persist. A long night on passage with a couple of sail changes in squalls, is really exhausting, but we do it and we rest when we can. When we can't do it we'll quit; we won't back off.

But normally none of the things we do which others have long since forsaken, such as hoisting a sail, dropping a sail, folding one or two sails on deck after the anchor is down, or gybing a spinnaker, are really that hard. We do them every time we go sailing. A bit of physical labor keeps you young (that and gym three times a week or hard swimming if we are not near a gym).

And our boat is set up to make everything so much easier. Clear foredeck for easy movement. Big, three speed, winches with excellent access, good leads on all lines to reduce friction, a boat which goes well with small sails which are easier to handle, and an absolute minimum of extra entangling ropes, lines and hardware. Movement on deck on our boat is easy, you could run if your balance is good enough (ours isn't) and all loads, due to direct leads and lack of friction, are low.

None of this is by accident, we chose a boat which is easy to sail and fast (so it is fun), yet with safety and comfort, because we knew we wanted to be able to keep doing it as long as possible.

Our time will come, it could happen at any time. Meanwhile we are sailing, not riding.

[jalmberg]

Interesting. What kind of sailing do you do, mostly? Daysailing? Coastal cruising? Long blue water passage? That makes a difference too.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by jalmberg

Interesting. What kind of sailing do you do, mostly? Daysailing? Coastal cruising? Long blue water passage? That makes a difference too.

We completed our circumnavigation several years back having visited 35 countries, 5 continents, and crossing all the world's major oceans. We accumulated 55,000 miles on that voyage and spent 18 years doing it. Most of it was double handed.

We currently have an annual cycle which includes racing for three months, coastal and regional cruising for 3-4 months and local day saying 5 months each year. Our offshore passages these day are generally less than 350 miles. The boat embarks approximately 45 times per year.

Racing is a primary sailing activity now and always has been, we have competed in over 450 races including several "Jack and Jill" double handed championships in the PNW, in the spinnaker class (no, not asymmetrical) and we raced in many of the countries we visited.

We have no land base, having lived onboard this boat for 35 years. The boat is magnificent. It is fast, safe, strong, comfortable, easy to sail and beautiful. We cruised the world with everything we own including 12 sails a 12ft dingy with motor, and all of our fuel and provisions and nothing was stored on deck or on the cabin sole or berth. We have no roller furling, arch, hard dodger, boom brake, lazy jacks, permanent bimini, etc. The boat is tiller steered.

We know we are outliers in the sailing world and don't expect many others to follow our model, but we'd like to nudge people a little towards more sailing, less motoring, and more enjoyment of a great recreational sport.

[jalmberg]

I get it. Every convenience is a trade off. We have a 40’ flush deck ketch with a bowsprit which most people would call old fashioned, but it did come with roller furling. Its the first boat we’ve owned with roller furling. I find it very convenient in one way, and damn inconvenient in several other ways. In particular it really limits your headsail options to things that don’t interfere with those ever present jib sheets. Is that trade off worth making? It’s a good question. We are still fit enough to change headsails now, but I’m not ready to say we will quit sailing when we are not. I don’t see any problem with using energy saving tools like self tailing winches, wash down pumps, etc. If it means another ten years of sailing. But everyone is different.

[DeValency]

As usual so many posts are totally ignoring the OP situation and setup, although he provided quite few clarifications along…
- he has a cutter, so all set with the upwind, storm etc. inventory among the two headsails. Adding an inner stay is irrelevant.
- for cruisers, frequent replacements of the genoa is a real pain especially in changing weather conditions, night and typically shorthanded.
- he also somewhat sensitive on the budget, as a top down furler is indeed the ultimate solution- but for a 35’ (nor for an Optimist) the cost is not $100 but at least $1,500 if one find a killer deal. - that’s before fittings and accessories, even if a bowsprit is not critical.

As for the sail to be used - there is a price you pay on the downwind performance as you try to get closer to an ‘all purpose’ drifter/code zero/asymmetrical. Guess the OP is well aware of that aspect.

• It is also a question of the crew by number and competency. For the very short handed a top down furler is the optimal solution - but the cost…
• a least expensive solution is a sock - but it requires more work and some level of know how and physical effort in synchronising the process quickly enough.
• a smaller drifter will make things easier but on the account of the performance.
- so need to run the usual compromises as we do on anything.

My experience: My Contest is a mast top, cutter rigged with two Selden furlers. Both headsails are overlapping (115-155) the main when fully unfurled. I had to keep two genoas as in the typical Caribbean conditions with the average 20 kts breeze I need a heavier sail to maintain speed before I fully furl it and let the cutter/staysail take the lead. In the US northeast in the summer I need a lighter genoa to maintain speed and upwind angle. - so the max replacement frequency of the 53’ luff, ~650 sf genoa it twice a year - never during cruising.

A drifter would not let me point well enough and wouldn’t add much in a broad reach. Being normally short handed and in a need for faster operation my only viable solution was an assymetrical over a top down furler.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Jammer

A naval architect who cruised with his family for several years and who does not post on this forum once described his drifter setup to me. A key point is that it was only intended for light air use and designed accordingly so everything was much lighter weight than would otherwise be possible.



It involved a Dyneema forestay with a halyard block at the top with a halyard going up and down the length of the forestay. The whole thing was hoisted on the spinnaker halyard and attached to a reasonably secure fitting on the deck. I think he mentioned using the anchor roller.


He then attached a hank-on nylon drifter made of ridiculously light fabric, I believe 3 oz., and hoisted it up using the halyard, and sailed while everyone else was motoring. I think he used nylon hanks or fabric hanks or something to minimize chafe on the ersatz forestay.


The use of a hank-on sail makes it easier to control during the hoist and douse than a spinnaker or other free-flying sail. The dyneema forestay is inexpensive and easy to store compared to a top-down furler. Since the auxiliary halyard is hoisted along with the dyneema forestay there's no need to add an extra halyard to the mast beyond those normally present.


The limitation of that approach is that the spin halyard and bow roller aren't strong enough to provide enough luff tension for anything more than a light breeze, or enough luff tension to maintain sail shape when close hauled.

That's interesting, I hadn't heard of that, I like that... I think that sounds like the best option. If you are only talking about <10 knots of wind you aren't talking about a major difference in pointing between that and a more robust option are you?

[DeValency]

Originally Posted by Marathon1150

Agreed. And I didn't even mention the running backstays which always seem to be in the wrong place.

Not if well designed with the right points as far as possible on the aft deck. As these normally used on cutters to compensate for the cutter/staysail forces. Would also be very useful for added force compensation, adjustment and rigidity when flying large asymmetrical, especially on long downwind courses.

[DeValency]

This is, in general, a very valid approach. Few imho comments within your post here:

Originally Posted by Jammer

A naval architect who cruised with his family for several years and who does not post on this forum once described his drifter setup to me. A key point is that it was only intended for light air use and designed accordingly so everything was much lighter weight than would otherwise be possible.

As at any case, the use of such drifter is intended for light air conditions

It involved a Dyneema forestay with a halyard block at the top with a halyard going up and down the length of the forestay. The whole thing was hoisted on the spinnaker halyard and attached to a reasonably secure fitting on the deck. I think he mentioned using the anchor roller.

Indeed, the simple and safe way to go, before investing in, say, 2' of a solid bow sprit

He then attached a hank-on nylon drifter made of ridiculously light fabric, I believe 3 oz., and hoisted it up using the halyard, and sailed while everyone else was motoring. I think he used nylon hanks or fabric hanks or something to minimize chafe on the ersatz forestay.

"When everyone else was motoring"(!!!), or forced to run too frequent jibes. That's the name of the game...

The use of a hank-on sail makes it easier to control during the hoist and douse than a spinnaker or other free-flying sail. The dyneema forestay is inexpensive and easy to store compared to a top-down furler. Since the auxiliary halyard is hoisted along with the dyneema forestay there's no need to add an extra halyard to the mast beyond those normally present.

Basically true, although top-down furler doesn't need to be stored... I like this simplicity, which should add to the convenience and safe handling up and down the masthead. However, in such a setup, you want to add a second line going from the drifter/halyard head down to the cockpit in order to help safely keeping the hanked luff/dyneema stay on board for the shorthanded crew or in a sudden change of conditions.

The limitation of that approach is that the spin halyard and bow roller aren't strong enough to provide enough luff tension for anything more than a light breeze, or enough luff tension to maintain sail shape when close hauled.

I'd say this is less of a concern, as we should be a) using it for a light breeze b) going downwind to a broad reach. For close hauling we should let our genoa take the lead. c) also, in these conditions the forces are mainly horizontal to, up to, say 40 degrees lift. A good bow roller and mounting should be more than strong enough - need to carefully verify. d) and going downwind, a nice luff curve is actually helping to keep shape, unless your drifter is really too flat