Adding inner forestay and running backstays to in-mast furling

[Sailjourner]

I am looking at a Ta Shing Tashiba sailboat with an in-mast furler and trying to assess if I can add an inner forestay. Tashiba’s are originally a cutter rig and the owner says he bought it with the mast and no inner forestay. There is a hefty deck mounted plate on the bowsprit for the inner forestay so no issues deckside. The concern I have is how to determine how to attach the mast attachment. I am considering a hank on sail with removeable dyneema stay and running backs. Some of the images of mast attachments I see online seem to suggest bolt through or simply rivets. I have been contemplating contacting a rigger, but as I am only considering it for purchase I didn’t want to get too invested.

Does anyone have experience adding an inner forestay and running backstays to an in-mast furler? What is the best method to attach if there is limited room due to the furler system?

Any pictures, products, thoughts and advice would be appreciated.

[markvannote]

Hello,

One thing which may be of help is the Sparcraft catalog. You can find it here https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZA0...wCq3JpGzf/view. Pages 20 and 21 show tang options. Page 38 starts the sheave boxes. All of the tangs we offer get pulled in to the slot or hole from the inside and the bolts or rivets are there to keep it in place. The wall of the mast, cut accurately, take the load of the tang. Feel free to reach out if you have any questions.

I will not get into the metal versus textile discussion. That is a pretty big discussion on it's own. Also, I would very strongly suggest you enlist a rigger for this project. Happy to recommend one in your area if you would like that.

Thanks.
Mark

[SailFanatic]

If you attach the inner forestay close to the masthead, you may be able to avoid the aggravation of running backs. Definitely a question for a rigger.

FWIW if I had the opportunity for configuring an inner forestay, I would look at making it fixed and putting a furling 135% or so on it, then put a furling working jib on the forward stay. I assume it would eb easier to tack the working jib upfront than the 135% upfront.

[psk125]

On another thread there were questions raised about rivets missing in a spreader base because they would have impinged upon the r/f mainsail, possibly causing it to chafe, tear, or jam. How much room is there inside the mast? Will the fasteners on whatever mast fitting you end up with interfere with the r/f main on this boat? A rigger might be able to answer this without climbing up there.

[scherzoja]

Does your mast have a vertical partition that separates the sail cavity from the cavity where halyards and wires run? I have a Hood Stoway mast and it has these two sections. All fasterners for the running backstays and staysail stay penetrate the halyard cavity, leaving the sail cavity free of fasteners.

[DeValency]

To the OP,

Not really clear about the inner stay chain plate described. If the boat has been designed as a cutter (not a solent rig), the chain plate should be positioned further back.

Anyway, my Contest has an original cutter rig (Selden), furler also on the cutter sail, with running backstays and in mast furling main. It works very well and adds a lot to the overall stiffness. If you can identify the mast brand and serial number you can probably verify the setup with the manufacturer.

Hope you can see the details in the attached picture.

[Sailjourner]

Originally Posted by markvannote

Hello,

One thing which may be of help is the Sparcraft catalog. You can find it here https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZA0...wCq3JpGzf/view. Pages 20 and 21 show tang options. Page 38 starts the sheave boxes. All of the tangs we offer get pulled in to the slot or hole from the inside and the bolts or rivets are there to keep it in place. The wall of the mast, cut accurately, take the load of the tang. Feel free to reach out if you have any questions.

I will not get into the metal versus textile discussion. That is a pretty big discussion on it's own. Also, I would very strongly suggest you enlist a rigger for this project. Happy to recommend one in your area if you would like that.

Thanks.
Mark

Mark,
Thanks, a couple of these mast attachments look feasible. I was hoping to see one with built in tangs into a single fixture. Aware of any?

[Sailjourner]

Originally Posted by SailFanatic

If you attach the inner forestay close to the masthead, you may be able to avoid the aggravation of running backs. Definitely a question for a rigger.

FWIW if I had the opportunity for configuring an inner forestay, I would look at making it fixed and putting a furling 135% or so on it, then put a furling working jib on the forward stay. I assume it would eb easier to tack the working jib upfront than the 135% upfront.

I am more interested in keeping with the original cutter design, so I think the attachment is placed such that you get essentially parallel stays. I intend a long journey so want the sail plan options with a hank on staysail. Worth investigating as I'm not keen on running backstays.

[Sailjourner]

Originally Posted by psk125

On another thread there were questions raised about rivets missing in a spreader base because they would have impinged upon the r/f mainsail, possibly causing it to chafe, tear, or jam. How much room is there inside the mast? Will the fasteners on whatever mast fitting you end up with interfere with the r/f main on this boat? A rigger might be able to answer this without climbing up there.

Great question. I assume the spreaders are original and not impending the furler. This would def be a point of inspection. I'm trying to get measurements but the owner is a little difficult to get info from. I'm working on visiting the boat, but travel options are a nightmare at the moment.

[Sailjourner]

Originally Posted by scherzoja

Does your mast have a vertical partition that separates the sail cavity from the cavity where halyards and wires run? I have a Hood Stoway mast and it has these two sections. All fasterners for the running backstays and staysail stay penetrate the halyard cavity, leaving the sail cavity free of fasteners.

That us next on my list to figure out. It seems this is common anytime the halyards run through the mast. I can only assume it's divided at yhis point.

[Sailjourner]

Originally Posted by DeValency

To the OP,

Not really clear about the inner stay chain plate described. If the boat has been designed as a cutter (not a solent rig), the chain plate should be positioned further back.

Anyway, my Contest has an original cutter rig (Selden), furler also on the cutter sail, with running backstays and in mast furling main. It works very well and adds a lot to the overall stiffness. If you can identify the mast brand and serial number you can probably verify the setup with the manufacturer.

Hope you can see the details in the attached picture.

The headsail is out about 3' on bowsprit, with an used ( oversized) deck attachment holding down the bowsprit as well, one large u shaped bracket. I was trying to post a picture, but not sure how to do that.

Does your mast attachment use a combined tang with stay attachment? Is it a retrofit, or factory? I'm afraid mine will be custom, which has me a bit nervous. A rigger will be necessary to determine.

[DeValency]

Originally Posted by Sailjourner

The headsail is out about 3' on bowsprit, with an used ( oversized) deck attachment holding down the bowsprit as well, one large u shaped bracket. I was trying to post a picture, but not sure how to do that.

Does your mast attachment use a combined tang with stay attachment? Is it a retrofit, or factory? I'm afraid mine will be custom, which has me a bit nervous. A rigger will be necessary to determine.

OK, so my understanding the cutter chain plate should create parallel forestays.
In my boat/mast, everything is original by Selden and Contest - tangs with stays attachments for the cutter stay and two running backstays and foredeck chain plate.

The actual installation has been optional. Most day/weekend/coastal sailors of this model (and the other 40’, 46’ and above) chose not to install the cutter stay while most blue water cruisers have installed. The added cutter significantly improved sailplan versatility over the years without the need to leave the cockpit.

When making short trips with frequent tacks the running backstays aren’t used but at long ocean passages, for days on the same tack at high breeze/seas, the running backstays added extra stiffness and a great sense of additional safety.

Good luck with your purchase

[caffel]

A worthy idea (says a cutter fan).
Think about it a bit differently, though.
You do want to have stays going aft to offset the new stays'l stay.
Who says they have to be runners ?
Solution: add a toggle or split fitting to the chain plates for the existing after lower stays and then attach the new upper after stays there.
caffel, ex rigger

[DeValency]

Originally Posted by caffel

A worthy idea (says a cutter fan).
Think about it a bit differently, though.
You do want to have stays going aft to offset the new stays'l stay.
Who says they have to be runners ?
Solution: add a toggle or split fitting to the chain plates for the existing after lower stays and then attach the new upper after stays there.
caffel, ex rigger

Now going into a wider discussion. While this is an option, real running backstays, going almost all the way aft adds a lot of extra value and stability and are easy to handle.

[Windswept-windy]

Originally Posted by Sailjourner

I am looking at a Ta Shing Tashiba sailboat with an in-mast furler and trying to assess if I can add an inner forestay. Tashiba’s are originally a cutter rig and the owner says he bought it with the mast and no inner forestay. There is a hefty deck mounted plate on the bowsprit for the inner forestay so no issues deckside. The concern I have is how to determine how to attach the mast attachment. I am considering a hank on sail with removeable dyneema stay and running backs. Some of the images of mast attachments I see online seem to suggest bolt through or simply rivets. I have been contemplating contacting a rigger, but as I am only considering it for purchase I didn’t want to get too invested.

Does anyone have experience adding an inner forestay and running backstays to an in-mast furler? What is the best method to attach if there is limited room due to the furler system?

Any pictures, products, thoughts and advice would be appreciated.

I have similar set up on our Hylas 46. I have stay chainplate (approx. 7 to 8') back from forstay. I have tang for T-bolt for stay and I also have tang T-bolt for running back stays. I have no sheave for the staysail. I did contact Selden....I have been informed it's a relativity easy fix. They have a block sheave for my/our application. Cut slot so sheave block is 3" below stay tang, rivet in. I'll attach 3 pic's that selden sent me.

Originally Posted by DeValency

Now going into a wider discussion. While this is an option, real running backstays, going almost all the way aft adds a lot of extra value and stability and are easy to handle.

I will be doing exactly as DeValency descirbes. I'm thinking synthetic to T-bolt down, to 4 to 1 purchase or so...to cam cleat.