Advice needed on my reefing points.

[Privilege]

I've spared no expense on the graphics to better explain my proposed set-up.

[psk125]

Originally Posted by Dave_S

It will depend on how far aft of the cringle it is attached to the boom, the closer it is the less the clew can move. I think you could match the 2:1 system.

You could match the 2:1 system, right up until you winched the line so hard the sheave at the end of the boom distorted. With the 2:1 setup on the reefing line, the force on the end of the boom would appear to be about half the total load of the proposed "new", direct setup. Are the sheave and bearing strong enough to withstand twice what it currently handles?

Putting in second or third reefs with a direct-to-the end of the boom setup would leave increasingly longer sections of line between the clew cringle and the end of the boom, with no component holding the clew near the boom. In conditions where one wants as much control as possible, this does not seem seamanlike.

[psk125]

Originally Posted by Privilege

I've spared no expense on the graphics to better explain my proposed set-up.

Attachment 188711

In order to allow the sail to be hoisted, the lines for the low friction rings you propose will need to be almost as long as the original doubled reefing lines you think are too much trouble to hide. Added to that will be a reduction in the mechanical advantage, and the possibility of lines snagging in the rings. The proposed set-up is not simpler, cheaper, easier to use, or neater. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[Privilege]

Originally Posted by psk125

Are the sheave and bearing strong enough to withstand twice what it currently handles?

When I'm sailing with full main, all of the sail weight is taken up by the boom-end sheave. I don't see how this would be different when the sail is reefed.

Originally Posted by psk125

In order to allow the sail to be hoisted, the lines for the low friction rings you propose will need to be almost as long as the original doubled reefing lines you think are too much trouble to hide. .

I don't understand this thinking. The lines for the low-friction rings only need to be long enough to clear the extra unused sail under the reefing point. When sailing with a full main with the traditional set-up, the unused reefing lines have to go all the way up to the cringle and then back to the boom. This set up would involve 50% less line.

P.S; I'm not the sort of person who comes up with an idea and then convinces myself that it will work despite what others have told me, but I'm always up for a good structured debate if it means possibly improving upon something

[bruceb]

I think the point should be made that the bowline style has to be a pretty tight loop or the knot hits the reef eye and then all you get is pull aft- you lose the two to one advantage. I have found they are more suited to smaller boats than yours. Also, the angle from the reef eye to the sheave should work out to about 45 degrees when tight. If your main's foot is too short on the boom, the lead "down" has to be moved forward to match. Most reefing systems work best with an eye on the boom to dead end the reef line since you can get a reliable lead angle. The eye has to be strong though, and sometimes I lead the reef line under the boom and dead end it on the opposite side. Second reefs (or thirds) almost always require dedicated cheek blocks and dead end eyes to have proper lead angles. If you are using single line reefing systems the lead angles become even more critical, and often work best with free running blocks at the reef eyes. Full batten mains work at very high loads on their boom attachments so everything has to be sized accordingly.

B

[Cpt Mark]

Following as I have a brand new boom, loose footed mainsail and 3 reef points. Your new idea is interesting but I'm not sure it would be worth it. If the reef lines aren't causing chaff which was also one of my concerns then the tried and true system works for me.

On a different note. I'm bringing everything back to my cockpit on my 35' cat with rope clutches on each line because I don't want to go out on deck unless I absolutely have to in pitching seas. Most of the time I am single handing.

So to the point of everything back to the cockpit I am thinking of adding 1 last line which would go to the head of the sail so I can bring it all down from the cockpit. If the 3rd reef is too much sail I for one don't want to go forward to bring the last bit of sail down in conditions that are sure to be horrible. Has anyone done this? Thoughts? I have a sail rite version of a stack pack with an endless zipper in the hopes that I might be able to also zip the sail shut as well from the cockpit.

[TrentePieds]

In neither one of your illustrations do you show a topping lift. IMO a RUNNING topping lift is ESSENTIAL for efficient, trouble-free reefing. Whether your gear is led to the cockpit or to the foot of the mast is irrelevant in this respect. The procedure and sequence for efficient, rapid reefing is this:

1: Come into the eye of the wind.

2: Raise the boom end a foot or so using the topping lift and belay it at the marker (see below).

3: Ease the halyard and belay at the marker (see below)

4: Haul the luff reef line and belay it when the luff reef cringle is by the gooseneck.

5: Sweat up the tension on the halyard either by hand or by winch as appropriate.

5: Haul the leech reef line and belay it when the leech cringle is on the boom end. Leading your reef line as shown in your first illustration, the foot tension will automatically be sufficient.

6: Ease the topping lift and belay at the marker (see below).

7: Fall off to your desired point of sail.

To do those things in a well found boat takes no longer than it took me to write those few words. But a couple of tips:

a) Halyard, reef lines and topping lift should be furnished with a sailmaker's whipping (sewn whipping) as markers at the points where they are to be belayed. The reason for using markers is two-fold: i) Every time you go through the evolution, the gear will be set in the predetermined, proper way. ii) You do NOT have to SEE what you are doing, you can FEEL the markers so that even on the foulest of nights you can KNOW that you are setting the gear right.

b) Using traditional HORN cleats, rather than the "modern" types of cleats, means that you can do the reefing single handed, in the dark, with green water on deck while keeping one hand for yourself to hang on with while the other does the work.

c) Where there's a chance that a line could escape while slack, provide it with a fairlead AHEAD of its cleat by a ffot or so, and put a stopper knot in the very end of the falls so that if you lose your grip on the line in rough conditions, you can find it again just by taking your hand to the location of the fairlead without having to actually LOOK for it.

d) Where the leech reefing line runs through the leech cringle there will be NO tension on it as you reef if you use the procedure above. The leech line is NOT a downhaul, and because the taut topping lift takes the weight of the boom, there is no need for mechanical advantage in the lead of the leech reefing ling.

All the best

TrentePieds

[bruceb]

Downhauls work just fine as long as the main pretty much free falls anyway. If the batten cars or slides bind half way down, they will stack up against each other and no amount of downhaul will get the mess down in a blow. If everything slides free the down line is great for getting the upper battens and head all the way down and holding them down until you can get the cover zipped. I have a full batten main about the size of yours and I have to put the halyard on a winch to slow it down when I drop it. I keep the mast track and slides clean and well lubed, and it also makes it much easier to hoist.

B

[psk125]

Originally Posted by Privilege

When I'm sailing with full main, all of the sail weight is taken up by the boom-end sheave. I don't see how this would be different when the sail is reefed.
Our outhaul sheave & bearing is heftier than our reefing line sheaves. Perhaps yours are strong enough to take the additional force.


I don't understand this thinking. The lines for the low-friction rings only need to be long enough to clear the extra unused sail under the reefing point. When sailing with a full main with the traditional set-up, the unused reefing lines have to go all the way up to the cringle and then back to the boom. This set up would involve 50% less line.
g

The unused reefing line will need to go from the end of the boom forward to the low-friction ring, and then up to the reef cringle. The forward distance may not be a lot, depending upon the roach of the sail, but added to the amount needed to allow the low-friction rings to clear the unused sail, it will not reduce the amount of line by 50%. It adds a layer of complexity, having to determine how much line the low-friction ring needs, and what happens if the sail is chafed by the line going through the ring?

It may work, but it seems unnecessary.

[wiekeith]

I’m struggling to get my head around one aspect (but it is very late here…).

If you have single line in-boom reefing, such as a Selden system, with your suggested modification will the slider in the boom move a sufficient distance toward the end of the boom to ensure tension of the luff reefing line?

Or maybe in my tired state I’m inventing a problem that doesn’t exist?

[hamburking]

If you want to get rid of some of the dangling lines when the main is lowered, maybe get rid of the first reef lines. I rarely/never found a time when one reef was enough. I always used the second reef. I removed the lines for the first reef, and simplified the lines. I could always re-rig the first reef if needed, but never needed.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Cpt Mark

So to the point of everything back to the cockpit I am thinking of adding 1 last line which would go to the head of the sail so I can bring it all down from the cockpit. If the 3rd reef is too much sail I for one don't want to go forward to bring the last bit of sail down in conditions that are sure to be horrible. Has anyone done this? Thoughts? I have a sail rite version of a stack pack with an endless zipper in the hopes that I might be able to also zip the sail shut as well from the cockpit.

If the main is not coming down well on its own it might be a good time to check the track and slides or whatever you have there for burrs or something. The sail should not hang up on the way down. That said, I have heard of lines run up the main's luff to pull it down, haven't seen it though. But to bring it down and zip it up in the stack pack from the cockpit? Wow, sounds great if you can pull it off. But I think the main will need some manual attention even if you have lazy jacks before zipping it up, no? A little time at least out in the maelstrom may still be needed, but that's part of the fun isn't it?

[waterman46]

No, you do not necessarily need 2:1, but it is traditional to have a small aluminum winch on the boom forward about 18 inches aft of the mast, to help tighten the reefing line. Remember the sail will be flogging madly snce you will be reefing in windy conditions, and the reefing line will be jerked out of your grip unless you have at least a cam cleat or better yet a winch on the boom. In fact I will say that any boat bigger than a small daysailer, using slab reefing, will be very difficult to reef in a blow without a boom winch.



As others have said, you do need to position the block on the clew end of the reef so that it pulls well aft, not straight down. Also you must secure the reef line to the sail's clew reef point in such a way that when it is tightened it will not twist the grommet, so tie a bowline there and not a figure 8 knot.

[Jamesw]

Used the traditional system with a block fastened to the clew cringle of the sail at each reefing point to avoid chafe. Used it on a 47' cat for 60,000 nm Was very effective despite the long outhaul on 3rd reef

[Kenzie Too]

What you have is a fair lead not a 2:1 ratio or mechanical advantage. In order to get the MA you need to return and round another sheave and create a purchase or gun tackle. Your idea is good but a mechanical advantage is not there.