Advice on Barlow 4 wire winch

[GwalarnYacht]

My project boat got a very old Barlow 4 wire winch, which still works, but perhaps not as smooth as it should. I tried research info on handling, maintenance and repair for these "old school" winches, without much success.

I don't understand how the wire can be guided in a way to evenly roll onto the winch, rather than to pile up on one end of the "barrel" (not sure what is the correct term for it) when hoisting the sail. There is also a separate "gap" on the winch barrel which I don't understand the purpose for.

I understand that most people would advice to upgrade to something more modern, but that's not what I'm aiming for.

Any advice is appreciated. Thanks.

[olaf hart]

Have you considered swapping the wire for Dyneema?

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by olaf hart

Have you considered swapping the wire for Dyneema?

A friend did that on his boat and it has worked very well, ranging from sydney to far north queensland and then down to tasmania and back to sydney.

[Bruce K]

I used one of these years ago, the wire needs to exit the mast at least a meter above the winch, you can sort of guide the wire so it rools onto the drum neatly, just before you reach the hoist required, push the wire onto the "gap" on the drum, this stops the wire from cutting into the coil of wire and jamming, only one or two turns onto the drum in the "gap", from memory the drum has no ratchet, so be careful releasing the brake. I think this winch would work brilliantly with dyneema; on stainless wire we often got broken strands, which were fondly called "meathooks" for obvious reasons.

[billknny]

These are really simple machines. Take it apart and how it works will be obvious. Then take it apart every season to care for it.

[Bill O]

We still have a Barlow 5 wire winch in service for our main. Had them on other boats and no problem.

To help it coil on the drum correctly can try a few things:
When you install the wire halyard make sure the lay of the wire is oriented correctly otherwise it will be fighting you.
Having too large of a wire diameter will make it stiffer/less flexible, making it more difficult to roll on the drum properly.

Obvious safety issue w/the wire winch if you leave the handle in the winch when lowering the sail (remove the handle). Never had a problem and w/proper instruction, never had a crew member injured either. With proper instruction these winches are fine.

Attached is a manual for a 3A which is probably fairly close to what you have.

[TrentePieds]

Gwalarn:

I think your problem stems from lack of attention to basic physics during original installation.

The "stool" (or "pad") on which the winch sits (the sheet metal doodad riveted to the mast) must have a cant to it so that the fall of the halyard, as it emerges from the fairlead (the "exit hole" in the mast above the winch) will, when it is laid across the winch barrel (at "half height"), make a true right angle with the axis of rotation of the drum. This is awkward to achieve if you have "internal halyards". With old-fashioned "external halyards" it is much less awkward or, indeed. important. When this winch was designed back in King Arthur's time, wooden masts with external halyards were still the common thing.

The purpose of this alignment is to ensure that the physical forces acting on the wire will cause it to "lay" neatly on the barrel working from end to end of the barrel, and then back again, until the barrel is full. The full capacity of the winch should be chosen so that the length of the fall of the halyard JUST fills the barrel when the sail is fully hoisted. Work the numbers: If your barrel is 4" in diameter, then one "lay" of the barrel is (4 x 3.1416) inches = 12.56 inches, call it a foot. If your hoist is 40 feet, you will need 40 turns on the barrel to hoist the sail fully. Can your barrel accommodate that? You can work your own numbers.

The "second gap" you talk about is there so that a rope tail may exit the casing of the winch so that it may be used without its "self stowing" feature. The reason for a rope "tail" is that wire is dangerous to handle with bare hands. The "plate" with a gap in it at the bottom of the barrel is there so the winch can "transist" from wire to rope. This requires that a smooth wire-to-rope splice join the two, and to make one of those seems to be something of a lost art, partly because we use braid instead of laid rope these days. These wire winches antedate braided rope.

In my opinion these winches are a royal PITA from every point of view, and in a cruising boat a halyard winch is totally unnecessary until you get into a
displacement that is far greater than most of us have. My present main on a "five tonner" is a measly 200 Sqft, but in days of yore I was comfortable handling a 450SqFt main on a "twenty-five tonner" without a winch. What is required to do so, is that the gear be set up correctly. To achieve proper luff tension when you don't have a winch you use a "Cunningham haul". And, of course, seamanship and cunning :-)

You haven't told us the size of your boat, but the above may give you something to mull over. :-)

All the best

TrentePieds

[George DuBose]

Skylark "had" a Lewmar wire winch for the main halyard. One had to spool the wire from one side to the other and then when raising the last 1-2 feet of sail, the wire halyard had to be pushed over to the narrow part of the spool to avoid crushing all the wire wound so far.

One of the reasons I removed it was that the bronze part of the braking mechanism would get a little tarnished and this would cause the drum to bind when lowering the sail.

That wire winch was replaced with a self-tailing.

The jib halyard is half wire and half line and its winch is standard.

[Bill O]

Trente,
I know you've been doing this sailing thing longer than myself and no disrespect here, but I have to assume that those winches were set properly decades ago when people knew how to deal w/wire halyards. How would they have survived this long?? Our aluminum mast w/internal halyards was set up w/these wire winches and work fine.

One does need to pay attention to the lay of the wire before you do the install (learned this by direct experience) otherwise it will fight you all the time and not lay on the drum correctly.

On our #5, the outside of the winch is 5" while the drum barrel is ~2.75"dia w/an inside barrel height of 3.5". The inside portion is what you get to work w/to hold your wire. As you start to add wraps and fill the barrel the dia. increases so your spool will hold a bit more as you add more wraps.

While I'll admit I don't actually don't know what the inside part of the winch does, I can say in all my years of sailing I've never seen this rope tail come into a wire winch as you describe. Honestly I'm not sure why one would do a rope splice there as it isn't needed. Also don't see a safety issue handling the shackle that is properly swaged to the wire. Almost all of our other halyards are rope/wire and again never had an issue w/handling them.

Will agree it is a lost art to do a proper wire to rope splice and will admit my wife's tapers are much better than mine. We do all our own slices and if anyone wants to learn how to do them check out Brion Toss's videos/books. This is how we learned to do them and it does take some practice until they look good.

[TrentePieds]

Hullo, Bill O :-)

I have NO argument with what you say, really, but it may amuse you to know that when TrentePieds came to us, dirt cheap, because MyBeloved LOVES the cabin rather than because TP is "my kinda boat" (which she is not), the PO had recently blown away 40 grand to renew the standing rigging and "improve" a perfectly good existing rig by installing a roller furl jib and MAST-FURLING main!!!

For casual summer cruising in a five tonner in the Salish Sea?? I ask you! Well, no biggie. I'll sail whatever I'm given to sail. But clearly the PO had ODed either on the glossy sailing mags or on the Innernet :-)!

But given that I'm well into my 81st year, for the money that would be required to change her back again to what I consider a seamanlike rig for these waters, I can live out the rest of my life.

Now obviously, a "sailor" who made such a disposition as the PO did, did not do the conversion hisself. I.e. It was done by a firm of "professional" riggers. That firm's name is known to me. TP is only a five tonner, so she doesn't really NEED winches at all. But the four self-tailers that's on 'er, were ALL incorrectly oriented! More sloppy work by that firm of "professional" riggers! But the OP wouldn't have been able to tell. And some riggers gotta make a buck where they can, right?

So accept [or reject if you'd rather :-)] what I have to say on the background of that. I would never presume to tell anyone in detail, over the InterNet, how to rig THEIR boat. What I can do, is advance for consideration some fundamental principles that people can then think through systematically and apply to their boats in a reasoned, cognizant fashion.

And I confess to being a Luddite. Or more particularly: To having an affection for wielding "Occam's razor". In toy boats, e.g. TrentePieds, the fewer shiny, expensive bits you have, and the more of the ones you DO have you have installed yourself, the less onerous and the less expensive your life as a cruising man will be.

All the best :-)

TP

[Island Time O25]

TrentePieds' post reminded me of that old saying that "the Arc was built by the amateurs while the Titanic was built by the professionals".

[stormalong]

Originally Posted by GwalarnYacht

I understand that most people would advice to upgrade to something more modern, but that's not what I'm aiming for.

Any advice is appreciated. Thanks.

I know you probably don't want to hear this but due to safety alone you should replace it with a more modern self tailing winch. Releasing the brake with the handle in place releases a lot of energy stored up in the tension of the halyard and the weight of the sail. A careless moment can cause a severe injury.

[TrentePieds]

Touché - but remember who made safe landfall ;-)!

TP

[stormalong]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Touché - but remember who made safe landfall ;-)!

TP

What does that mean?

[Djarraluda]

I agree with Bill. Never seen a rope tail on a wire winch. It would take too much space. Part of the ‘joy’ of these is there is no tail.
First, they can be dangerous. Broken ribs and wrists were common for newbies. Fish hooks got everyone.
There is one vital maintenance point. NEVER oil the brake band! Seems obvious but....
In use, wear a glove and take care to align the coils smoothly. Last 2 turns go on the inner drum so it does not bind into the bulk of the wire.
When lowering the sail, be very careful. I always let it fall, no winch handle in place. If handle is there, it flies around, breaks ribs and wrists easily, but if done under control you wind it out, unless your hand then slips. In my opinion, you need granny bars for safe and firm standing if you elect to do this.
Internally, the winch is a straightforward cog and gear arrangement to turn the drum.