Alpine Butterfly for Jib Sheet?

[unbusted67]

Hey are there any drawbacks to tying an alpine butterfly in the middle of a long jib sheet? Everything I read says it can handle sideways loading. Anyone try this or should i just do a boating old bowlin?

[Orion Jim]

Originally Posted by unbusted67

Hey are there any drawbacks to tying an alpine butterfly in the middle of a long jib sheet? Everything I read says it can handle sideways loading. Anyone try this or should i just do a boating old bowlin?

Found this on Al Gore’s internet.
“The breaking strength of the butterfly knot is 53% with both ropes loaded, and 67% loop loaded.”
“ The bowline is 70 to 75 percent,”

I’ve used the bowline for jib sheets since the 60’s and never had a problem.

[dougweibel]

If tied in the middle of a long line used for both sheets then it seems a bowline will be pulling on the standing leg when on one tack and the working leg on the other tack. I'm sure the strength you quote Jim is for a pull on the standing leg. I haven't gone crazy searching but I can't find a spec for the strength of a bowline pulled by the working leg.

The Alpine Butterfly on the other hand is intended for use pulling either or both legs.

[Orion Jim]

Originally Posted by dougweibel

If tied in the middle of a long line used for both sheets then it seems a bowline will be pulling on the standing leg when on one tack and the working leg on the other tack. I'm sure the strength you quote Jim is for a pull on the standing leg. I haven't gone crazy searching but I can't find a spec for the strength of a bowline pulled by the working leg.

The Alpine Butterfly on the other hand is intended for use pulling either or both legs.

Never known anyone who tied a bowline in the middle of a sheet but give it a try and let us know how you make out.
I have always used a separate sheet on each side, with a bowline tied to the clew. Works exceedingly well.

[mikedefieslife]

I use an alpine butterfly. Since most Genoa sheets are well oversized anyway, it's never going to be a problem. IMO It's worth it for a tidier sheet config.

[unbusted67]

Originally Posted by mikedefieslife

I use an alpine butterfly. Since most Genoa sheets are well oversized anyway, it's never going to be a problem. IMO It's worth it for a tidier sheet config.

With a soft shackle?! Cool. Not worried about it flogging off? I’ll probably do something just like this. Thanks.

[mikedefieslife]

Originally Posted by unbusted67

With a soft shackle?! Cool. Not worried about it flogging off? I’ll probably do something just like this. Thanks.

Not at all. I've had it on a few years now, no issues. I made the soft shackle myself. It's a 36m2 genoa. I've flown it into the wind, on the beam, off the wind, in up to 45 knts, plenty of flogging since it's a cheap dacron genoa that needs replacing soon. Hint of the soft shackle coming undone. I love the reduced bulk and easy access.

your milage might vary of course.

[AKA-None]

I’ve been using two soft shackles one for each jib sheet

[admiralslater]

There is a video out there showing a soft shackle splicedon the end of the sheet . .not two pieces

[FabioC]

Do not quite understand why you would want to do that.
If you have a single, long line, and a furling jib, a "luggage tag" is the way to go. Simple and lighter. Of course, it only makes sense for a furling jib. If you change your headsail often, having two separate sheets with soft shackles is preferable since it allows "peeling" the headsail

[Capt Y Knot]

The bowlines at our head sail clew were catching on the side shrouds when furling the head sail .

I replace the two sheets with a single long line and used a larks head at the head sail clew. Works fine, no knots to hanging up on the shrouds.

[waterman46]

We replaced our two worn sheets with a single length. It's long enough that I can't bring myself to cut it in half - and there is no reason to do so.
If this is for a furling genoa jib, where you don't have to remove the sheets, ever, just use a cow hitch (hope that's the right name) and it never slips, is very small and won't hang up on shrouds.

Once in a while you can move the hitch so the wear will be distributed a bit. After a few years if the wear gets excessive, then cut the line, reverse it and use two bowlines.

[roland stockham]

I would not use an alpine butterfy here. As the name suggests it is a climbing knot and its strength is that it maintains stength when loaded 3 ways. This is great when the middle man on a rope falls and is checked from above and below. With jib sheats only one sheat is loaded at a time and there are stronger knotts. As people have said above a bowin has a standing line and lazy line, cant be loaded on the lazy line so should not be used unless you have seperate sheats. The best knot here is a figuer of 9. It is a fi 8 but with an extra turn around the standing ropes befor theading the loop through. Has the same strength but is less prone to jamming. Use a fig 8 and you will need a spike and patience to undo it!
Question, why use one line? Tradditionally jib sheets are to seperat lines each tied into the clue with a bowline. Means if a line is chaffed only that line has to be replaced. Also can be tied direct so ther is no need for a metle link flailing around damaging crew and the boat. Traing boats use colour coding for port staboard, and each sail which is not a bad idea with multiple sails on any boat.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by unbusted67

Hey are there any drawbacks to tying an alpine butterfly in the middle of a long jib sheet? Everything I read says it can handle sideways loading. Anyone try this or should i just do a boating old bowlin?

I know this is a less “snag free” option than two bowlines, but in double braid poly under high load an Alpine butterfly loop jambs in a weird configuration when the load is applied on the loop and one end. You can easily demonstrate this by applying load with a winch with the loop attached to a fixed point.

A cow hitch (luggage tag) will slide in time if on the same tack for an extended time. This may not be a big deal for you.

I have not seen load testing results of the working end of a bowline is loaded, but the configuration of the knot simply does not lend itself to load applied in this manner. This is definitely not an option I would consider unless you fall into the “live dangerously” category .

By far the best solution is to splice two eyes at the ends of the sheets when new and attach these to the clew with two soft shackles, giving the flexibility of removing just one sheet.

SWL

[meirriba]

If you insist on one long sheet, cow hitch (luggage tag) is your answer. It is simpler to tie/untie than alpine butterfly. Why complicate if there is no compelling need?
Probably stronger too but I am not sure of this.