Amsteel Solent - Thoughts Hanking the sail

[rgleason]

I have an amsteel solent stay and grommets just behind my RF jibs wire luff.

I have small wichard clips with about 8" of strap with a loop to act as hanks.
The problem is these are too long and the solent stay is about 4" away from the leading edge of the luff.

I would like to develop a hank replacement solution that is failsafe, quicker and easier and also ties the leading edge of the jib closer to the solent stay.

At first I thought that making (24) Better soft shackles would possibly be a good solution using (24) 1/4" Amsteel 12 strand x 44" (24 x 44"=1,056"=88' x $2/ft= $176) which is pretty expensive

So then I thought why not make the rope shackles out of New England Ropes Regatta Single Braid which is also 12 strand 1/4" x 88' x $0.67/ft = $59 ! I could possibly do this and I wonder if it would work just as well?

A hank does not have extreme loads so dyneema is not needed for that. The only problem might be stretch, but with the short lengths doubled up it might only be an 1/8" or so.

Then I started thinking about the fiddly aspects of being on deck forward in wind and waves, holding onto 24 loose rope shackles and trying to hook them onto the dyneema solent stay.

..Of course, it makes a lot more sense to pre setup the solent sail all hanked onto the solent stay, keeping it in the bag tied to the base of the mast, ready deploy. Still the fiddly part bothers me.

OR use a dogbone instead of a know similar to this Antal (This is a minor change)

OR perhaps tie each rope shackle to a light line that runs from the head of the sail to the tack

OR perhaps tie each rope shackle to the grommet location on the sail.

OR perhaps just use a 40'x 1/4" double braid line tied to the head of the sail and make 1/2 hitches through each grommet (including the solent stay) all the way down to the tack, then tie the line tightly to the tack.

Has anyone done this?

Would the 1/4" double braid hank line stretch too much?

Would the 1/4" double braid hank line stretch unevenly throughout the luff?

Would it be better to use 40' of 1/4" amsteel to reduce stretch, or perhaps heavier double braid?

How practical would it be to try to tighten the double braid hank line (in order to bring the solent line closer to the jib luff, and even it out) after the jib is hoisted, in howling weather?


Any savy thoughts, experience or suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks.

[rgleason]

I suppose I could secure regular hanks to the grommets, but then it might interfere with the Roller Furler operation. Maybe there is a hank that could be secured such that doesn't interfere?

[seandepagnier]

You might simplify your question. There is no problem using bronze piston hanks on dyneema stay provided the hanks are smooth and not worn from use on a wire stay. Bronze hanks are faster t put on and remove than soft shackles.

[Jim Cate]

What is the length of the sail's luff? 24 hanks on the storm sail for a 32 foot boat seems way too many to me. A smaller number would help keep the cost down no matter what form the hanks turn out to be.

Jim

[rgleason]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

What is the length of the sail's luff? 24 hanks on the storm sail for a 32 foot boat seems way too many to me. A smaller number would help keep the cost down no matter what form the hanks turn out to be.

Jim

37', but the jib itself is 34' so it will fit on the solent stay.


I don't believe there is that much load on a hank.

[Nekton73]

Bronze hanks such as these might fit your criteria, and 24 at that price would be less than the amsteel:

https://www.velasailingsupply.com/wi.../?gad_source=1

If this is a sail you expect to use often, or even rarely but when conditions are difficult, snap hooks are about the easiest way I think. I'd consider it well worth the investment to have a sail that is so easily hanked or removed (de-hanked?).

As already mentioned, no issue with bronze hanks on dyneema as long as they are smooth, which new ones would be.

And if you wanted to cut cost even further I agree you could use less, perhaps ever other eyelet, without worry.


Edit:


I just re-read your OP and you say you are already using Wichard clips of some sort, attached with an 8" loop. Do the clips already have an eye at the base and the loop is tied into that? If yes, why not just tighten up the strapping to about 1" and sew it into the eye, similar to the way sail slugs are attached to a mainsail. Cost would be minimal, aside from the time it takes.
Or you could just lash the clips to the sail directly if you want as little space as possible between them and the luff.

[Benz]

I fed a bunch of round brass thimbles onto my jibstay before splicing it, and each has a piece of Dyneema hitched to it with a loop and one end and a wooden toggle at the other, much like the Antal shackle you linked to. I can quickly attach headsails with luff grommets to these, and there's no moving metal parts to seize up like piston hanks and clips often do, and the thimbles do no damage to the dyneema stay.
I'm about to make a similar setup for a customer with aluminum Low Friction Rings (LFRs) for his synthetic stay, which is getting abused by Wichard hanks

[rgleason]

Ben, Thanks that is another way tothink about this. I like thr wood toggle into the grommet idea Since my dyneema stay is loose at the bottom the rings can be added any time. Another idea might be to simply thread the dyneema solent stay down through the jib grommets from the head to the tack, then then when it needs to be deployed secure the bottom of the dyneema to my deck slider and tighten up on the 4 part pulley. Then haul the jib up. I wonder if that would work?
That option has been available for years and I hadnt thought of it.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by rgleason

Ben, Thanks that is another way tothink about this. I like thr wood toggle into the grommet idea Since my dyneema stay is loose at the bottom the rings can be added any time. Another idea might be to simply thread the dyneema solent stay down through the jib grommets from the head to the tack, then then when it needs to be deployed secure the bottom of the dyneema to my deck slider and tighten up on the 4 part pulley. Then haul the jib up. I wonder if that would work?
That option has been available for years and I hadnt thought of it.

Sorry, been gone a few days....
Rather than thread the stay through the grommets, you'll want to seize rings or something to the grommets so the line can run parallel to the luff, rather than weaving from side to side on the luff grommets.
I do something pretty similar with my staysail.

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by rgleason

I have an amsteel solent stay and grommets just behind my RF jibs wire luff.

I have small wichard clips with about 8" of strap with a loop to act as hanks.
The problem is these are too long and the solent stay is about 4" away from the leading edge of the luff.

You could seize these right at the sail luff - don't need 8" straps - if the distance off is your main problem. Show us a photo and we can tell you exactly how.

We used wichard sail clips on a dyneema stay for our stormsail - https://marine.wichard.com/en/stainl...teel/part-2483. Worked very well - fast one handed operation, strong and well made, a bit expensive.

Originally Posted by rgleason

At first I thought that making (24) Better soft shackles would possibly be a good solution using (24) 1/4" Amsteel 12 strand x 44" (24 x 44"=1,056"=88' x $2/ft= $176) which is pretty expensive

You don't need 1/4" dyneema for this. 1/8" would be plenty (might use 1/4" for the top two, but not needed even there). You can easily make the soft shackles captive to either the stay or the sail - again, we can tell you exactly how if you need. You can use either toggles or stopper knots. Some small pros and cons but both would work just fine. They are a bit more fiddly to hook up than the Wichards and more of a two-handed operation.

Originally Posted by rgleason

So then I thought why not make the rope shackles out of New England Ropes Regatta Single Braid which is also 12 strand 1/4" x 88' x $0.67/ft = $59 ! I could possibly do this and I wonder if it would work just as well?[INDENT]A hank does not have extreme loads so dyneema is not needed for that. The only problem might be stretch, but with the short lengths doubled up it might only be an 1/8" or so.

You can perfectly well make soft shackles out of 12 strand polyester (like regatta or I slightly prefer Samson Tenex). Neither stretch nor strength will be an issue with 1/4". But the polyester is not as slippery nor as chafe resistant as Dyneema.

Originally Posted by rgleason

Then I started thinking about the fiddly aspects of being on deck forward in wind and waves, holding onto 24 loose rope shackles and trying to hook them onto the dyneema solent stay.

make the shackles captive to either the stay or the sail. easily done.

Other options:

North successfully used dyneema webbing with velcro closure for some soft jib hanks (on large high tech open race boats - eg yes they held more load than you will see). I find velcro on a cruising boat has a limited life span, so would not be my first choice, but is a quick on/off solution.

As other people have mentioned new/unused standard bronze hanks will work. They don't chafe the stay much. But my experience suggests they are not as kind/soft as some people suggest - it probably depend on exactly what brand/model bronze hanks you use. IDK, but for me they are fine for a storm jib that you only use once a blue moon, but for a sail that is used a lot I think you will find other options here potentially kinder to the stay.

There are lots of options which work for this, with different pros and cons - price, easy of hooking up on the foredeck, easy of DIY, kindness to the stay, longevity. Personally in the end after trying a bunch of solutions on several different sailed we most liked the wichard clips I pictured above, but your choice will ofc depend on your priorities which could well be different than mine.

[rgleason]

Breaking Waves, Benz and others. Thank you for sharing your experience and ideas.
You've asked for some pics. So here they are.


There were perhaps easier ways to do this, but this setup was done awhile ago. The 3/8" blue amsteel wraps around a drum 3-4 times and is held by a jamb cleat. Pulling the 4 part pulley, moves the glider forward on the track and tensions the solent stay.


The grommets are currently threaded with a SS Wichard small hook with a 6"-8" webbing strap with a loop sewn in at the end. They work, but I find the jib leech is too far from the solent stay for my liking, and is not optimal for laminar airflow. You can see this in some of the pictures.


Why wouldn't threading the solent back and forth through the grommets work? Particularly if the sail is setup beforehand and bagged and strapped to the mast for deployment?


Also, wouldn't making soft shackles of 1/8" line be more difficult?

[ChrisJHC]

Originally Posted by rgleason

Also, wouldn't making soft shackles of 1/8" line be more difficult?

Disclaimer: I love playing with Dyneema!

Having said that, I would probably not use soft shackles for this purpose but hanks.
I note that you can get plastic-covered hanks that will provide even less chafe: https://www.ronstan.com/au/pacific-p...k1-4-wire.html
You definitely don’t need 24 hanks on your small storm sail!

If you do want to use soft shackles, I find that using gardening wire (the type with plastic coating) works well to pull the Dyneema through itself.
Also, I would use a button knot to secure the soft shackle. Note that the button knot is one of the few that doesn’t overly rely on the bury to secure the knot.
You don’t need the whole 2.5 or 3.5 fids worth of bury.
A good taper is still nice to give a nice final result.

[rgleason]

Had considered that type and they might work, but the solent is 3/8 amsteel not 1/4" wire. Also these hanks would have to be secured in a temporary manner because this jib also fits on the roller furler.


I think I should try fixing the existing wichard hanks and straps by tightening them up with a resewn loop that just fits over the hank tightly such that the hank will still function. This arrangement would allow easier removal for use as a roller furler.

An other alternative perhaps is to try weaving the halyard.

[Benz]

^^If you try weaving the halyard through the grommets, you'll have to oversome some obscene friction, worsesing as you hoist, and you'll never get a straight luff, since it'll be, well, weaving side to side.

I wouldn't even put this in the list of possible options.

[rgleason]

Ben, I think you are probably right about the friction.. I was thinking about the slippery nature of dyneema. If i were to try it I probably wouldnt tighten the stay until the sail was up, but then bringing it back down might be a problem too!