Any alternative to North 3di?

[nfbr]

I'm looking at a flat Solent for pointing on a larger cat.

North 3di seems to have the edge for construction.

Are there any other non-membrane competitors out there?

Thanks

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by nfbr

I'm looking at a flat Solent for pointing on a larger cat.



North 3di seems to have the edge for construction.



Are there any other non-membrane competitors out there?



Thanks

Non-membrane, aka laminate? North has that too. Contact the sailmakers in your area to see what materials and designs they use. And/or contact the offshore sailmakers such as Precision, Lee, Rolly Tasker, Zoom, Far East Sails, etc. Calvert Sails is a specialist multihull sailmaker.

If you’re looking at laminated or woven options then the panel layout matters - triradial cut is likely most appropriate for a relatively tall and narrow sail.

Why not membrane? In addition to North 3di you’ve got Doyle Stratis, Ullman FibrePath and a host of others.

Do you want a local sailmaker, or are you OK doing the measurements yourself and receiving the sail via courier?

[nfbr]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Non-membrane, aka laminate? North has that too. Contact the sailmakers in your area to see what materials and designs they use. And/or contact the offshore sailmakers such as Precision, Lee, Rolly Tasker, Zoom, Far East Sails, etc. Calvert Sails is a specialist multihull sailmaker.

If you’re looking at laminated or woven options then the panel layout matters - triradial cut is likely most appropriate for a relatively tall and narrow sail.

Why not membrane? In addition to North 3di you’ve got Doyle Stratis, Ullman FibrePath and a host of others.

Do you want a local sailmaker, or are you OK doing the measurements yourself and receiving the sail via courier?

Info seems to be that 3di is non laminate and more durable as a result.
Most others are laminate
Not talking woven.

[silvercreek]

OneSails offers a 4T Forte product that is similar to 3di and they make them for multi hulls as well https://www.onesails.com/internation...forte/4t-forte

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by nfbr

Info seems to be that 3di is non laminate and more durable as a result.
Most others are laminate
Not talking woven.

I can be wrong about the technical aspect of some of the manufacturer's products but in general it is like this:

In the North 3di process the fibers and glue tape is laid down over a tafetta or other substrate, over a whole sail mold, and then heat and pressure is applied to turn the "lamination" into a single cross linked product.

If it is North 3di Raw then it is just many passes of the fiber and glue tape which is laid down on top of each other without any substrate or layers until there is sufficient thickness to make the sail. This is then heated and pressured to make a single, cross linked, product. Same as above but without the taffeta or other layers.

In all the membrane systems I know of the fibers are laid down on substrate (or several), including usually but not always tafetta, sometimes mylar, on a a pre glued large panel, which is finished with heat and pressure which turns the "lamination" into a single crosslinked product, called a membrane. Then the panels are sewed or glued together to make a complete sail.

Typical laminated sailcloth has two or more layers which are glued together when the cloth is produced, one of which layer has directional fibers and usually there are mylar and tafetta layers as well. It is sold in a roll. This cloth is cut and sewed to make the sail.

The main difference as I see it between North 3di and the membrane sails is in North's proprietary tape, fibers, and glue and the full size, shaped, mold.

As far as longevity I think all of these methods are fairly durable these days.

For example I have membrane sails for racing and my main competitor has North 3di Raw sails (and a North sailmaker on board). Both of us have sails which are about 5 years old. Both of us have had damage but as far as I know neither of us have had any delamination. My previous kevlar/mylar sails from 2007 all delaminated after about 7 years.

For cruising I use Dacron.

[Loredo]

Wingsail nailed it down to the point.
To my best knowledge (and that doesn't mean much...) as of today North is the only company using the full-size-shaped-mold to build a monolithic sail.
With "monolithic" I mean to say, no sewing, no stitching.

My personal experience with sail-failures (after some "X" years) has most often been related to the stitching/sewing.

That's the main reason why I chose the 3Di above any other performance oriented sail.

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by Loredo

North is the only company using the full-size-shaped-mold to build a monolithic sail.
With "monolithic" I mean to say, no sewing, no stitching.

Actually, this is not really correct.

a 3di sail is laid-up in multiple panels on a flat platform surface, by robot tape layers. The panels are then rolled up and carried over to the sail mold where they are placed with the tapered edges of the panels overlapping (just like all other paneled sails). And then heat/vacuum is applied to cure the glue. These sails do in fact have panel join lines - they are glued rather than sewn (many competitive panelized sails are both sewn and glued), but there are still multiple panels with join lines.

There were notable failures at these bond lines, and extreme QA and care to environment and handling is necessary to make the glued-only bond lines to cure well. I will say that I have not seen many bond line failures recently, but likewise, I have not seen many panels join failures in other (properly maintained) sails.

3dl (the prior north technology) was the North method of producing sails with continuous fibers from corner to corner with no panel joins in the load-carrying fibers. Unfortunately (for north) that method was not very durable and they mostly have given it up.

(edit just for reference I sat on North's management committee when 3di was being developed).