Attache Solent Stay to Mast Crane

[Nekton73]

Hello CF community,


this is my first post here, thank you in advance for all your input and patience as I muddle through some ideas. I look forward to contributing wherever I can with my limited experience.


I am looking to add a Solent stay to my boat, a venerable old Grampian 30. I understand the options for adding hounds, or a t-ball fitting, or other attachment to the mast however I would like opinions on attaching it directly to the masthead crane. I've attached a picture of mine with some arrows and labels that hopefully describe what I'm trying to ask. (For those sharp eyed inspectors, please ignore the birdcaged stay peeking out from above the furler foil, this has been corrected)



It is a typical cast aluminum crane with twin sheaves fore and aft, a single aft pin for the backstay, and two pins forward, one for the forestay and one for...? Many folks use this to attach a sheave for the spin halyard, which is what I've done up until now, but I plan to add a proper spinnaker bail which will then free up this pin. My question is: could I move my forestay (with furler) to this upper pin, and use the lower one for the Solent stay? What was this second pin originally intended for? Just the spin?



My first thought was that this location might be weaker (particularly to any lateral forces) because it is cantilevered farther out than the inner pin, but perhaps the addition of a spin bail with stainless cheek and cap plates should add some strength and distribute load as it will be captured by all 3 forward pins.


Another thought was that the eye of the swage fitting will barely fit into the slot where this pin is, so I will have to enlarge it a bit, thus weakening the structure. I would add a toggle to mitigate side loading issues, and make up for the slightly increased height of the new pin.


Yet another con might be proximity to the furler and risk of contact with the furler head, but I won't be furling when the stay is in use and it will be pulled well aft and stored against the mast.


My reason for wanting the stay is to have the option of using a hank on sail when the wind pipes up without having to drop the genoa (just furl it up), as well as a proper storm jib if ever needed (hopefully not). The storm jib that came with the boat has luff tape and goes into the furler. Lots of threads here on how that is not ideal and I'm finally getting around to finding a solution.



So, bad idea? Not so bad, but could be improved? Great idea, I just can't find any examples of it?



Thoughts welcome, and thank you.

[Nekton73]

For some reason the attachments did not work, trying again.

[psk125]

Putting the load of the forestay onto a masthead casting that was designed for the load of a spinnaker would give me pause. The shock loading as the mast whips around up there might weaken the crane section enough to crack it. The current position of the headstay looks like it is in a pretty hefty spot, with a lot of aluminum all around it. The proposed position looks like the clevis pin is much closer to the edge of the casting and you are planning to widen the slot to accept the headstay end fitting - weakening it further. It would be a shame to have it fail and lose the mast. Fitting a tang on the forward side of the mast for your Solent stay a little lower down should not be that difficult, and would certainly be less expensive than replacing a broken mast.

[Nekton73]

Thanks for the quick reply, and I agree with your concerns. My default will be not to do this if I can't convince myself that it is safe. As you say, there are other tried and true methods for solving this problem, this is just the easiest so I'm investigating it.



While thinking on the narrow slot issue I remembered there is a type of rigging toggle that has an eye at one end and a jaw at the other, rather than the u-shaped type that I have elsewhere on my boat. It should fit in the upper slot just fine so at least that issue is moot, no need to enlarge.


However your observation about there being less material around the upper clevis pin than the lower one is a good one. I wonder if that is offset by the added thickness of the casting around that hole?


Also, I'm not actually sure what that second hole was designed for and I was hoping someone might know. Was it truly meant for a spin attachment, with thicker casting around it to handle side loads from the spin? Seems logical.

[Jim Cate]

I agree that the outer pin is intended for a spinny halyard block and would not want to attach the forestay there.

I would also not want the Solent anywhere near that close to the forestay and furler. From sad personal experience I can tell you that interference is guaranteed. On our Solent rig there is around two feet of vertical clearance between the attachment points for forestay and Solent stay on the mast, and over four feet of horizontal separation on the lower chainplates. And yet there is still bare clearance between the furlers. You don't plan to use a furler on the Solent, and that eases the issue somewhat (unless in time you decide as we did that a furler there would be nice!), but IMO they are still too
close as described in your plan.

Jim

[Nekton73]

Thanks Jim!


I have been trying to research mast truck design with little avail, and the strength of the outer pin is definitely my biggest concern.



Just for clarity, not only do I not intend to use a furler on the solent stay, I also don't intend to use the existing furler while it is attached. The furled headsail will be rolled up tight and secured before I attach the second stay. Proximity to the forestay didn't strike me as a big issue as long as there is sufficient space to hoist and lower a hanked sail, but it sounds like it will end up much tighter than I had thought. If I'm not going to run with this idea then I will ensure there is plenty of space between the two when I finally do it.



Cheers.

[GordMay]

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, Nekton.

[Clivevon]

“On our Solent rig there is around two feet of vertical clearance between the attachment points for forestay and Solent stay on the mast…”
Jim[/QUOTE]

Ditto on my removable forestay, used same as you intend. There is a special fitting to attach the removable stay to the mast, i Think ours came from Selden. you cut a slot in the face of the mast and the fitting fits behind the mast wall and is riveted in place. It’s intended for a removable fore stay.

[johnn33]

SailboatData says there was a cutter rig option
https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/grampian-30
Perhaps if you have the original mast the manufacturer may have details?

John

[Boatyarddog]

Originally Posted by Nekton73

For some reason the attachments did not work, trying again.

Lower, a foot of clearance between your fore stay and furler is going to make any tack or Gybe much easier.
Place a fitting lower on the mast.
Boatyarddog

[Boatyarddog]

Originally Posted by johnn33

SailboatData says there was a cutter rig option
https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/grampian-30
Perhaps if you have the original mast the manufacturer may have details?

John

1974 tall rig option. 40' stick, versus 36 ft.
Have a tang welded to it.
Boatyarddog

[Boatyarddog]

Originally Posted by Clivevon

“On our Solent rig there is around two feet of vertical clearance between the attachment points for forestay and Solent stay on the mast…”
Jim

Ditto on my removable forestay, used same as you intend. There is a special fitting to attach the removable stay to the mast, i Think ours came from Selden. you cut a slot in the face of the mast and the fitting fits behind the mast wall and is riveted in place. It’s intended for a removable fore stay.[/QUOTE]

Ugh, riveted, keep an eye out for loosening up.
They should be welded.
Boatyarddog

[zstine]

I know you are trying to save some effort/cost by using the crane, but I just don't think that's going to happen. You would need significant mods to the crane and it likely won't work well.

1) The lead from the jib halyard sheave will foul on the inner stay and chafe. Not sure how to solve that.
2) the width of the slot in the crane between the pins has to be widened not only for the stay, but for the Jib halyard to fit through. Adds another chafe issue and structural issue.
3) Your spinnaker needs to be outboard of the Jib, so if you move the forestay, you will no longer be able to fly a spinnaker as there's no higher place to attach it.
4) The clearance provided by the crane, between the inner stay and forestay, appears to be too small and you will have fouling issues with the Jib furler upper bearing and halyard.

I recommend adding a tang/bail a few feet down that has 2 attachments, 1 for the inner stay and another for an external halyard or you could add a T-ball and a sheave box to run an internal halyard.

[Dantp]

As others have said I don't think you will have enough clearance between the stays.
Work out the angles then make a drawing.
If it doesn't fit then you don't have to worry if it's sting enough.
I know you plan to furl the Genoa before rigging the inner stay. However you might find you want to rig it ahead of time incase you need it, and continue using the Genoa. (You can always furl to tack if required).

I can see why you were considering the option.

Boatyarddog. The wichard baby stay tang is in 2 parts, fits inside the slot and pulls on the inner surface of the mast. The rivets just keep it in position.

[Nekton73]

I did some measuring and drawing actually and the angles work for me on paper as long as my deck attachment is far enough aft. However, experienced voices here caution against having the inner stay too close and I'm not discounting that. My real concern/question was just the strength of the upper pin vs the lower and so far the consensus seems to be not worth the risk, so I will put the idea aside for now. If new info presents itself I will reconsider, and it's easy enough to experiment with a spare line to visualize clearances for future reference, once the mast is up again this spring.


In the mean time, I appreciate all the comments and suggestions for ways to implement an inner stay. I'm familiar with the options and where to buy all the bits, and comfortable with doing the work. Will plan on implementing a more traditional inner stay install at some point. For now the spin crane is my improvement for this season, and I am looking forward to it.


Cheers all.