Calculating Dyneema for Standing Rigging

[unbusted67]

Hey all,

I'm going to do my standing rigging myself with Dyneema using thimbles and dead eyes. I have a ketch with 1/4" SS on the main and 3/16" on the Mizzen.

Using Colligo's stretch calculator it looks like I should go with 5/16 and 1/4" Dyneema respectively. If I were to replace with stainless I'd be looking at a total of 310 feet of 1/4" SS for the main and 120 of 3/16"SS for the mizzen

1) How do I calculate length of dyneema? It looks like I should anticipate appx 30" for dead eyes and lashings per stay. Have others found this to be accurate? What about calculating for splicing and creep? Is adding 20% to the stay lengths adequate to account for bury in the brummel splices?

2) what size (gage?) lashing material should I use for lashing dead eyes? 1/8"?

[Benz]

Calculate the length of bury. Some say 52 diameters, other prefer 72 diameters. Decide which you want (no doubt Colligo has a guide for bury amounts of their DUX). Add that amount for each splice (it won't amount to even 36 feet in either case), plus the distance around the thimble. Since you're doing lashings, an inch either way won't matter: what's more important is cutting all your lowers the same length so the deadeyes all line up and look symmetrical. If you can get the cap shroud deadeye to line up as well, even better; if not try and get it a little above the other two, or it will look silly.
As for the length you'll lose because of fattening up the standing part with the bury, it's not enough to worry about if you're doing lashings. I would do 1/8" for the 1/4" lashings, and 3/16" for the 5/16". The length of the lashing is a matter of taste--I would say only make sure you're not going to get two-blocked on your lashing. Mine are something like two feet, and I've seen as much as four.

[SailFastTri]

Good advice Ben. @unbusted67 I tried this myself and found the conformal creep was really too much.... I had to re-splice twice to take up the length. I did not use Dux I used standard Dyneema SK78.
I would not do it again without using Dux. Colligo will give you all the professional advice you need. I’m not affiliated.

[unbusted67]

Colligo, Colligo, Colligo. I hear about these guys on every forum everywhere. Is it maybe, just maybe possible that they have cornered the market on synthetic standing rigging through a very aggressive marketing campaign around Dynex Dux and that maybe there are other options? New England Ropes has a couple of heat set options HST78 HST90...I don't doubt that they are good but are they twice or even three times the price of other options good? Must we also buy their extremely expensive hardware?!?! Just playing devils advocate here and kind of joking...but also not.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by unbusted67

Colligo, Colligo, Colligo. I hear about these guys on every forum everywhere. Is it maybe, just maybe possible that they have cornered the market on synthetic standing rigging through a very aggressive marketing campaign around Dynex Dux and that maybe there are other options? New England Ropes has a couple of heat set options HST78 HST90...I don't doubt that they are good but are they twice or even three times the price of other options good? Must we also buy their extremely expensive hardware?!?! Just playing devils advocate here and kind of joking...but also not.

Two or three times as expensive???? Not at all true. Just compare with other specialist (note, specialist) fibre companies like Karver, Blue Wave, Ino-Rope, etc. Those other guys are sometimes two to three times the price of Colligo gear. There’s a heap of design and development going on in the fibre space and you can’t compare the cost of specialist fibre products (say, line terminators, AKA thimbles) to regular line products.

Though I admit that I don’t understand why Low Friction Rings are so damn expensive, no matter who makes them.

When you compare Colligo products to major producers like Facnor or ProFurl their like for like products (say Colligo’s ELHF structural furler compared to ProFurl’s NEX and Facnor’s STK) the ELHF is 30% less expensive.

So I guess it depends. For DIY fibre Rigging is still new enough that it’s hard to say what the ‘right’ solution is going to be in 10 or 20 years, so we can see on YT a number of people doing it themselves using a whole bunch of different gear and techniques. If you compare that with a professional company like Colligo then yes, they are going to be more expensive. But we’re not in the age of generics for fibre gear yet. YMMV

[Ambler]

Originally Posted by unbusted67

Colligo, Colligo, Colligo. I hear about these guys on every forum everywhere. Is it maybe, just maybe possible that they have cornered the market on synthetic standing rigging through a very aggressive marketing campaign around Dynex Dux and that maybe there are other options? New England Ropes has a couple of heat set options HST78 HST90...I don't doubt that they are good but are they twice or even three times the price of other options good? Must we also buy their extremely expensive hardware?!?! Just playing devils advocate here and kind of joking...but also not.

To my knowledge Dynex Dux is available from the makers Hampidjan of Iceland. They have outlets around the world that can supply.

Colligo retails Dux and designs fittings to work with Dux for sailing applications.

[SailFastTri]

Originally Posted by unbusted67

Colligo, Colligo, Colligo. I hear about these guys on every forum everywhere. Is it maybe, just maybe possible that they have cornered the market on synthetic standing rigging through a very aggressive marketing campaign around Dynex Dux and that maybe there are other options? New England Ropes has a couple of heat set options HST78 HST90...I don't doubt that they are good but are they twice or even three times the price of other options good? Must we also buy their extremely expensive hardware?!?! Just playing devils advocate here and kind of joking...but also not.

As I posted above, I tried generic SK78 Dyneema and would not do it again. My results were not as good as I would have had if I had spent more for Dux. The pre stretch in Dux does make an important difference because it tightens the weave and removes the constructional creep

[flyingnut40]

And yet I have read that once stretched to its working load, regular Dyneema will stabilize and then experience even less creep than DUX. My understanding is if you allow for this and pre-stretch your stays you can reduce the need for re-splicing.

This assumes that you are using dead-eyes, NOT turnbuckles. If you want to use turnbuckles, then DUX or NER STS is the only way to go.

Having said that, there is at least one cruiser out there that started with turnbuckles and after a year decided to eliminate them in favor of dead-eyes.... I forget the poster, but I could find it if you need the actual name.
If you are building dead-eyes (you can buy them from Kraken Structures) the HD closed Suncor thimbles are under $3 each from Fisheries Supply in 3/8".
I am planning a re-rig of my next boat in Dyneema, not DUX because of cost and as such I am removing the stretch of my stays in a very controlled manner.
I have purchased a 10,000 lb. load cell and display that I can both test a new dead-eye idea AND pre-stretch my stays. I also purchased a chain come along that will do up to 3000 lbs. to do the pre-streching.

Not wanting to hi-jack your thread.....

If anyone wishes to keep up with this project over the next 6-8 months, let me know and I will start a thread dedicated to DIY rigging on a tight budget.
Dennis

[SailFastTri]

Originally Posted by flyingnut40

And yet I have read that once stretched to its working load, regular Dyneema will stabilize and then experience even less creep than DUX. My understanding is if you allow for this and pre-stretch your stays you can reduce the need for re-splicing.

This assumes that you are using dead-eyes, NOT turnbuckles. If you want to use turnbuckles, then DUX or NER STS is the only way to go.

Having said that, there is at least one cruiser out there that started with turnbuckles and after a year decided to eliminate them in favor of dead-eyes.... I forget the poster, but I could find it if you need the actual name.
If you are building dead-eyes (you can buy them from Kraken Structures) the HD closed Suncor thimbles are under $3 each from Fisheries Supply in 3/8".
I am planning a re-rig of my next boat in Dyneema, not DUX because of cost and as such I am removing the stretch of my stays in a very controlled manner.
I have purchased a 10,000 lb. load cell and display that I can both test a new dead-eye idea AND pre-stretch my stays. I also purchased a chain come along that will do up to 3000 lbs. to do the pre-streching.

Not wanting to hi-jack your thread.....

If anyone wishes to keep up with this project over the next 6-8 months, let me know and I will start a thread dedicated to DIY rigging on a tight budget.
Dennis

3000 # is not enough to get rid of constructional stretch, and you would need to sustain your load over time. You can’t cut corners and get the same results as the pros.

[unbusted67]

Originally Posted by flyingnut40

And yet I have read that once stretched to its working load, regular Dyneema will stabilize and then experience even less creep than DUX. My understanding is if you allow for this and pre-stretch your stays you can reduce the need for re-splicing.

This assumes that you are using dead-eyes, NOT turnbuckles. If you want to use turnbuckles, then DUX or NER STS is the only way to go.

Having said that, there is at least one cruiser out there that started with turnbuckles and after a year decided to eliminate them in favor of dead-eyes.... I forget the poster, but I could find it if you need the actual name.
If you are building dead-eyes (you can buy them from Kraken Structures) the HD closed Suncor thimbles are under $3 each from Fisheries Supply in 3/8".
I am planning a re-rig of my next boat in Dyneema, not DUX because of cost and as such I am removing the stretch of my stays in a very controlled manner.
I have purchased a 10,000 lb. load cell and display that I can both test a new dead-eye idea AND pre-stretch my stays. I also purchased a chain come along that will do up to 3000 lbs. to do the pre-streching.

Not wanting to hi-jack your thread.....

If anyone wishes to keep up with this project over the next 6-8 months, let me know and I will start a thread dedicated to DIY rigging on a tight budget.
Dennis

Please do. Sounds interesting regardless. As posted above it seems like synthetic standing rigging is still the wild west. Maybe I was being a bit hyperbolic when i said that dude was 3x the amount of competitors. But I mean, why don’t hey have prices listed on their site?! lol. It does seem like some competition is popping up here and there for dux. I see DSM is coming out with DM20 which is a heat treated pre stretched fiber. NE ropes has STS-HSR.

[seandepagnier]

I would suggest using larger than 1/4" dyneema. I replaced 3/16 rigging with 5/16 dynex dux and it's still ok after 10 years.

Using 1/8" for lashing is very small also.

[flyingnut40]

Originally Posted by SailFastTri

3000 # is not enough to get rid of constructional stretch, and you would need to sustain your load over time. You can’t cut corners and get the same results as the pros.

Assuming that 3/8" is good for 15,000 lbs. then 3000# is 20%.
That's a good start, without getting pulleys involved. If I need a bigger tackle, I'll get it.

[flyingnut40]

Originally Posted by unbusted67

Please do. Sounds interesting regardless. As posted above it seems like synthetic standing rigging is still the wild west. Maybe I was being a bit hyperbolic when i said that dude was 3x the amount of competitors. But I mean, why don’t hey have prices listed on their site?! lol. It does seem like some competition is popping up here and there for dux. I see DSM is coming out with DM20 which is a heat treated pre stretched fiber. NE ropes has STS-HSR.

I don't consider 8+ years of this stuff being on cruising boats to be new....

Here is a start Ben....

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/5-13mm-Hampi...Kl3MW1P7_hTkTw

or here

https://jimmygreen.com

I found endura 12 SK75 on sale at;

https://rwrope.com/

I bought enough to do a 36' boat for about $900

I'm not just blindly diving off the high board with this stuff.... but I will cut thru the mystery that keeps prices high.... stay tuned.

[flyingnut40]

Originally Posted by SailFastTri

3000 # is not enough to get rid of constructional stretch, and you would need to sustain your load over time. You can’t cut corners and get the same results as the pros.

I don't have a problem with loading the stays up and leaving them until they stabilize. That's at least part of why I want testing equipment….. so I can measure.... not just guess. And I want a way to quantify how much tension is on my shrouds while tensioning..... good enough is NOT!

I'm looking for something just a bit more scientific that hooking the stay between a pickup truck and a tree!

YMMV

[flyingnut40]

Originally Posted by boat_alexandra

I would suggest using larger than 1/4" dyneema. I replaced 3/16 rigging with 5/16 dynex dux and it's still ok after 10 years.

Using 1/8" for lashing is very small also.

You are correct 1/8" is good for about 2500# where 1/4" is more like 8600#

I'm going to use 3/16" (5400#) but once you loop it 5-6 times the total goes to 30,000#+ so definitely NOT the weak link.