Changing fromat mast reefing to cockpit

[Innovator33]

I currently have to go to the mast to reef. I want to move reefing to the cockpit. Short of replacing the boom, what would be the preferred reefing setup.
I understand that the main halyard needs to be back to the cockpit. The boom layout is what I am interested in getting sorted.
I have 2 reefs. 33foot centre cockpit. Single handing.
Thanks
Michael

[billknny]

If you google "single line reefing" you find lots of options with drawings and photos. You can pick the one that best matches up with your current setup.

[fxykty]

Single line reefing generally requires a purchase system in the boom, as the reef’s clew has to move further than the reef’s tack. This may be retrofittable in your boom. Check with a rigger once you’ve decided which system you prefer.

[TrentePieds]

Michael:

Draw yourself a little scaled, dimensioned plan of your main to get your head around what you need to do, bearing in mind that for every change of direction of the lines you need to make to implement the system, the system becomes less willing to do what you want it to do due to increased friction.

Friction is your enemy here. Consider first that friction generated by the track/slides or cove/slugs that hold the luff of the sail to the mast needs to be reduced to the point that the sail will "rattle down" under its own weight when you slip the halyard. As it does so, it needs to drag behind it the halyard, overcoming as it does so the friction in the sheave in the crane at the masthead, the friction of the turning block at the heel of the mast, the friction of any additional turning blocks or fairleads mounted on deck, and the friction of the clutch by at the cockpit bulkhead.

With a main of perhaps 250 Sqft that simply isn't gonna happen, It therefore falls to the reefing line at the luff to supply the downhaul required to bring the sail down to the reef points. While that is happening, you need to have the boom end supported so it doesn't drop when the tension comes out of the sail and interfere with the procedure of reefing. That requires a proper running topping lift that you can also control from the cockpit. When the boom is supported by the topping lift, the tension required on the reefing line for the leach is very little, but again, for every change in direction the line takes, additional friction and difficulty is introduced. The turning block on the outer end of the boom that services this reefing line needs to be positioned so not only does the tensioned line hold the leach down onto the boom, but it also furnishes “outhaul” to tension the foot of the sail. There is absolutely no need for this line to be concealed within the boom. It will work as happily, and with less aggravation for you, if you fit it on the side of the boom, thence to a turning block at the goose neck, thence in parallel with the luff reefing line to the cockpit.

The reefing lines, luff and leach, are taken via turning blocks and fairleads to clutches at the cockpit bulkhead. A second reef point, rigged to be handled from the cockpit, only introduces more “spaghetti”, of course, and soon your deck will become unnavigable tor human foot.

To the best of my knowledge no-one has ever devised a way of tying off the nettles from the cockpit, so the bunt of the sail must necessarily be left lashing about in the wind which is not good for it. Thus, IMO, if you have to go on deck to tie off the nettles, which is where you incur the real risk of going overboard, particularly in a centre cockpit vessel, you might as well just swallow hard and do the reefing from the mast where you have something to facilitate keeping “one hand for the ship and one for yourself”.

In bigger boats you often see structures at the foot of the mast that are specifically furnished for the deckhand to lodge his bum in, so he can brace himself while having two hands available for work. In small boats such as yours and mine, that doesn't work. If I have to work standing at the mast, I like to embrace one shroud by getting it between my body and my arm, right at the armpit. So far, so good. But part of it is that I never leave reefing too late. For a cruising man to “reef early, reef often” is sound policy. And, of course, you NEVER go on deck without your harness and safety line properly deployed.

And while we are thinking about safety, do remember that a properly rigged running topping lift makes it possible for the boom to do double duty as a cargo boom. Having that cargo boom is IMO the ONLY way that you'll ever get a MOB back out of the water and over the rail.

So while you might consider me a Luddite, I would not, meself, bother with setting up to reef from the cockpit.

All the best,

TrentePieds

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Michael:

Draw yourself a little scaled, dimensioned plan of your main to get your head around what you need to do, bearing in mind that for every change of direction of the lines you need to make to implement the system, the system becomes less willing to do what you want it to do due to increased friction.

Friction is your enemy here. Consider first that friction generated by the track/slides or cove/slugs that hold the luff of the sail to the mast needs to be reduced to the point that the sail will "rattle down" under its own weight when you slip the halyard. As it does so, it needs to drag behind it the halyard, overcoming as it does so the friction in the sheave in the crane at the masthead, the friction of the turning block at the heel of the mast, the friction of any additional turning blocks or fairleads mounted on deck, and the friction of the clutch by at the cockpit bulkhead.

With a main of perhaps 250 Sqft that simply isn't gonna happen, It therefore falls to the reefing line at the luff to supply the downhaul required to bring the sail down to the reef points. While that is happening, you need to have the boom end supported so it doesn't drop when the tension comes out of the sail and interfere with the procedure of reefing. That requires a proper running topping lift that you can also control from the cockpit. When the boom is supported by the topping lift, the tension required on the reefing line for the leach is very little, but again, for every change in direction the line takes, additional friction and difficulty is introduced. The turning block on the outer end of the boom that services this reefing line needs to be positioned so not only does the tensioned line hold the leach down onto the boom, but it also furnishes “outhaul” to tension the foot of the sail. There is absolutely no need for this line to be concealed within the boom. It will work as happily, and with less aggravation for you, if you fit it on the side of the boom, thence to a turning block at the goose neck, thence in parallel with the luff reefing line to the cockpit.

The reefing lines, luff and leach, are taken via turning blocks and fairleads to clutches at the cockpit bulkhead. A second reef point, rigged to be handled from the cockpit, only introduces more “spaghetti”, of course, and soon your deck will become unnavigable tor human foot.

To the best of my knowledge no-one has ever devised a way of tying off the nettles from the cockpit, so the bunt of the sail must necessarily be left lashing about in the wind which is not good for it. Thus, IMO, if you have to go on deck to tie off the nettles, which is where you incur the real risk of going overboard, particularly in a centre cockpit vessel, you might as well just swallow hard and do the reefing from the mast where you have something to facilitate keeping “one hand for the ship and one for yourself”.

In bigger boats you often see structures at the foot of the mast that are specifically furnished for the deckhand to lodge his bum in, so he can brace himself while having two hands available for work. In small boats such as yours and mine, that doesn't work. If I have to work standing at the mast, I like to embrace one shroud by getting it between my body and my arm, right at the armpit. So far, so good. But part of it is that I never leave reefing too late. For a cruising man to “reef early, reef often” is sound policy. And, of course, you NEVER go on deck without your harness and safety line properly deployed.

And while we are thinking about safety, do remember that a properly rigged running topping lift makes it possible for the boom to do double duty as a cargo boom. Having that cargo boom is IMO the ONLY way that you'll ever get a MOB back out of the water and over the rail.

So while you might consider me a Luddite, I would not, meself, bother with setting up to reef from the cockpit.

All the best,

TrentePieds

AS in everything on a boat - this is a compromise. TrentePieds is completely correct but (there is always a but), if you're going to reef from 2nd to third reef, you are probably already in heavy seas and weather.

We have single line reefing from the cockpit and the biggest challenge is getting the line that hauls the sail down by the mast away from the sail so it doesn't chafe. We rerigging this now because we have had to rig new lines while underway (in heavy seas - yeah - entertaining).

The nettles are a different issue - if you buy and install a Dutchman reefingsystem - this is solved for you. But the Dutchman has other issues.

[barnakiel]

We too have it all in the cockpit.


We use triple reef lines, slab reefing.


Our boom has internal sheaves for the aft lines. If you do not have these, you can fit blocks on the outside. Easy.


The lines here that are led to the cockpit are:


- halyard,
- topping lift,
- forward reefs 1,2,
- aft reefs 1,2,


These lines go thru clutches to small winches each way of the companionway.


Needles to say, whatever we do in the cockpit, can be also done at the mast.


To run the 3rd reef (emergency only, used it maybe 2 times in 15 years) I recycle the 2nd level reef line.


Cheers,
b.

[RaymondR]

I single hand all the time and on my last boat rigged all the halyards and reefing lines back to the cockpit. It's not hard to do, just make a start and it will sort itself out as you go along.

You don't need a Dutchman, just normal lazy jacks will hold the reefed sail OK.

[roverhi]

Have double line reefing run back to the cockpit for the main on both my boats, 3 reefs on one and 2 on the other. One boom has internal run clew reefing lines, the other conventional. Both work as long as you have a way/place to hang the blocks. On one used stand up blocks to turn the lines at the mast base and other blocks are hung on pad eyes tapped to mast at the base. Inherited the set up on the second but wish I'd used a base plate on the deck stepped mast for attaching the blocks on both. You'll have to run the halyard back to be able to reef entirely from the cockpit. The only disadvantage running the lines back is the cost. Winch(es), Clutches and blocks can be more than a boat unit if you buy new. I sourced most of the hardware from eBay at large discounts which eased the bite.

[Clivevon]

I converted my centre cockpit ketch mainsail to cockpit reefing as I was effectively sailing almost singlehanded with a young family at the time.
I have 3 reefs, all reeved. I decided against the complication of single line reefing. I have a two line system with 3 separate luff reefing lines & 3 leech lines, which works well enough.
We have lazyjacks & a stack pack mainsail cover, which means we need to be head to wind when raising the main to stop the sail battens catching on the way up, or else bring one set of lazyjacks forward to the mast ..... .

The main halyard, kicking strap (boom vang) & topping lift are also led back, as are the 2 genoa halyards & spinnaker halyard - so 12 lines in all. There is a winch & a bank of 6 clutches each side of the companionway & also we have 2 "3 in 1" halyard bags. You also need blocks at the foot of the mast, & deck organisers each side for all these lines. So you need to buy & fit a lot of hardware by the time you are done.
(BTW I would suggest a 3rd reef in place (unless your 2nd reef is effectively a 3rd?). If anything, I would leave off the 1st reef luff line as that would be the easiest time to go to the mast.)

Having said that, friction is a real issue. We just have sail slides on the main - no roller cars. In fact we always raise the main by hand at the mast, which is much easier & quicker, avoids battens catching in lazyjacks, but also means you need someone else in the cockpit to be pulling through the slack & closing that clutch. We just winch up the last little bit. Not sure how that would work for a singlehander ?

Another issue for us is that when reefing the stackpack obscures sight from the cockpit of the luff & leech lines by the boom, so you cant easily tell when they are fully home which is a bit of a nuisance.

So changing to cockpit reefing is not that cheap & not that simple, in the end. Probably easier to install a safe way to get to & from the mast so you can see & do everything from there?

[billdre]

I installed single line reefing two years ago. I needed turning blocks, clutches, cheek blocks for the boom, etc. To keep costs down without going used, I bought Garhauer products. If don't already know about them, they make top notch stainless steel everything at significantly lower prices. Online catalog and you can call them if you have any questions. Yes, you can actually call them and they are nice and helpful.

[Djarraluda]

Mike, good to see you on the forum here.
I suggest you look at the Harken website, actually I believe others now have similar details so you can choose.
Real decisions are 1 or 2 line system.
Single line runs boom to leech crinkle, to boom, to gooseneck, to luff crinkle, to gooseneck, to deck, to deck organiser and finally to clutch and winch. I.e one heck of a lot of friction and sail pinch points. For EACH reef point!
Two line simply extends your existing system back to the cockpit. Yes it is more line but soooo much less complicated.
I would suggest luff lines on one side, leech reef lines on other side but you need to look at what works for you.
Roger

[Cheechako]

I would avoid single line reefing. Too difficult to use too much friction etc.
So just have a downhaul for the tack and the reefing line for the clew both come back to the cockpit.
Once you reef a few times with all those lines, friction, stoppers, etc in the cockpit you will realize just how easy going to the mast is....

[CassidyNZ]

I had single line reefing back to the cockpit on a previous boat. The one thing that irritated me was the amount of line lying around the cockpit. When one is on the third reef, there is so much line lying around it’s a real mission to control it all, stop knotting, stow it neatly, etc. Our cockpit is a living area for us and to have multiple coils of line everywhere along with four rope clutches that need to be mounted somewhere and another maybe 2 winches, is in my opinion, way too much clutter.

If I recall correctly, there was insufficient space inside the boom for three turn blocks to pass one another and the 3rd reef was in any case a 2-line system. I’ve not had a full 2-line system come back to the cockpit but I can imagine there would also be piles of line to contend with.

I reef from the mast. Find it easy and quick, have a series of simple “ties” on the mast to contain the gathered line (halyards too) and keep things sorted and tidy, after all, there is only one line per reef. I have Batcars on the mast making everything slide effortlessly and a Stacpac to contain the bunt.

[roverhi]

Double line reefing is so easy and safe from the cockpit that I've been known to reef just for the fun of it. That was never the case when I had to go to the mast. Even the first reef in unprotected waters can be exciting at the mast. One hand for the boat and two to reef leaves me anatomically challenged and in danger of being thrown overboard at the worst. Then there is also the fun of getting to the mast from the cockpit on the canted and pitching walkway. In the cockpit, work from the bridge deck on my knees or wedged in the companionway. Both are very stable and safe. Oh! did I mention also dry under the dodger.

Depending on how your at the mast reefing is set up, there may be no more blocks on a double line reefing system and in any case, only one more sharp angle turning of the line with a double line system so friction isn't all that much greater. Can get my main about 3/4 of the way up before I need to winch from the cockpit. Can hoist the main only a little further up when hoisting it at the mast so almost no difference in winch time from cockpit or the mast.

Have never had a problem with the lines running along the deck. The inboard to outboard span of the lines from the deck organizer is only about 6" so easy to avoid on the 6' plus wide cabin top. Of course with the reefing lines run aft there is almost no need to be on the cabin top.

I'm not very fond of single line reefing. Having only sailed on a couple of boats that have it and reefing did not go well requiring trips to the mast to untangle lines and friction was definitely an issue. I do sail in a light wind area so the reefing set up on these boats may not be used often, if ever, so not optimized. Still it seemed there were way too many cringles, right angle turning blocks, and a whole lot of line to pull in. On my boat the third reef would require hauling in 68' of line with a single reefing system. With a double line system you'd only have 34' each for the clew and tack. The tack line would be virtually slack with virtually no resistance to the reefing line on my double line reefing set up are stowed in sheet bags on the cockpit face. They only come into use when the sail is actually reefed except for the main halyard.

[TrentePieds]

I have the same concerns as Cassidy. But let me add one more :-):

Why has the elegant, ever ready, easy to use, "never fail", zero maintenance horn cleat gone down to defeat to something as ill-conceived and misbegotten as the "clutch"???

If you MUST have all kinds of spaghetti leading to the cockpit bulkhead, then, for Heaven's sake, use horn cleats instead of clutches. A properly positioned and belayed horn cleat permits you to coil and hang the falls of the lines in a proper seaman-like fashion. And to shake them out again without generating friction.

Grumble :-)!!

TP