Chotu’s Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

How much % extra was the quote for Blue Wave mechanical fittings instead of swage? Would be interesting for a thread like this to see that difference

17% cost difference and most of my little rigging project is fittings. Only a tiny bit of wire. So I don't think this represents most projects. This is a really simple one but with a lot of extra components.

So I went with swage since it'll save me hours of time AND costs 17% less.

Hard to make any other decision here.

This will be plug and play.

Press the bushings in, drape the wire over the seagull striker and put the pins in, then tighten up the turnbuckle.

Very attractive

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Renegde_Sailor

If you are running Dyneema, what do you do for the roller furler stay?

It's stainless cable, longer than necessary.

Needs to be cut to size and attached once the rig is vertical.

Synthetic is for the bottom of the shrouds to lengthen them and allow an upper and a lower to connect to single chainplate pin without intermediary (heavy stainless) hardware components.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Renegde_Sailor

If you are running Dyneema, what do you do for the roller furler stay?

It’s not recommended to put a furling luff foil over a fibre forestay due to hidden chafe. So if you stick to that kind of furler then the forestay should remain 1x19 SS wire.

If you convert your furler to a structural furler (the forestay is connected between the top of the furler at the bottom and the bottom of the top swivel, with the furler and top swivel being attached to the forestay tangs at the base and the mast respectively) then you can run a fibre forestay. PBO is the predominant material rather than Dyneema (Dyneema doesn’t handle the torque of furling as well as PBO, so has a shorter design life).

Structural furlers are what the IMOCA boats use - much lighter and less bulky to reduce furled windage. The issue with structural furlers is that you can reef the headsail - it can only be fully furled or fully out. With multiple forestays that’s not much of an issue. If a single forestay, probably not suitable for cruising.

We implemented a fibre forestay when we changed our rigging from wire to Dyneema (removed 74kg, added 6kg!). Part of the work was to create an inner forestay that we could use for the separate staysail and storm jib required now that we can’t reef the jib. Since we’ve got a self tacking jib that’s good to 30 kts AWS we don’t use the staysail very much and the storm jib not at all (so far!).

[Renegde_Sailor]

Originally Posted by fxykty

It’s not recommended to put a furling luff foil over a fibre forestay due to hidden chafe. So if you stick to that kind of furler then the forestay should remain 1x19 SS wire.

If you convert your furler to a structural furler (the forestay is connected between the top of the furler at the bottom and the bottom of the top swivel, with the furler and top swivel being attached to the forestay tangs at the base and the mast respectively) then you can run a fibre forestay. PBO is the predominant material rather than Dyneema (Dyneema doesn’t handle the torque of furling as well as PBO, so has a shorter design life).

Structural furlers are what the IMOCA boats use - much lighter and less bulky to reduce furled windage. The issue with structural furlers is that you can reef the headsail - it can only be fully furled or fully out. With multiple forestays that’s not much of an issue. If a single forestay, probably not suitable for cruising.

We implemented a fibre forestay when we changed our rigging from wire to Dyneema (removed 74kg, added 6kg!). Part of the work was to create an inner forestay that we could use for the separate staysail and storm jib required now that we can’t reef the jib. Since we’ve got a self tacking jib that’s good to 30 kts AWS we don’t use the staysail very much and the storm jib not at all (so far!).

I have a Spencer 42, and many came with an inner forestay, I have been wanting to add it to mine.



That structural furler sounds interesting, and considering the sails I am most concerned with rolling up are my 130% Genoa and 85% yankee that I swap out at 20 knots. This may be an option when I do mine. Right now been looking at the Harken Mark IV


I have a 60% storm jib that would be perfect for flying on an inner forestay, which would also keep the center of effort much more inline...


Who builds that structural furler?

[The Yacht Rigger]

For a removeable storm jib on a babystay, if you want to get away from wire, and set it up on a furler, I've set a few up on "bottom up" endless line type furlers. For instance the bamar EVO series. I like the Bamars because if you size it correctly you can use the same drum for an asym spin with an AT cable. Dual purpose.
So I setup a storm sail on an AT cable, and use a 2:1 halyard for hoisting. So it's easy to get great tension, and then you just run the furling line and sheets (or sheet if self tacking) aft. Allows you to furl/unfurl and control the sheeting from the cockpit, on a small sail, and when you furl and drop the sail, all you're left with is a 2:1 halyard - which can just be clipped to the deck or mast base as needed.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Renegde_Sailor

I have a Spencer 42, and many came with an inner forestay, I have been wanting to add it to mine.



That structural furler sounds interesting, and considering the sails I am most concerned with rolling up are my 130% Genoa and 85% yankee that I swap out at 20 knots. This may be an option when I do mine. Right now been looking at the Harken Mark IV


I have a 60% storm jib that would be perfect for flying on an inner forestay, which would also keep the center of effort much more inline...


Who builds that structural furler?

http://www.kzracefurlers.com/

We have a 10T single line furler (offshore range) for our primary jib and a 4T single line furler (inshore range) for our staysail/storm jib. The staysail and storm jib are not full height and use Dyneema strops to extend their heads to near the mast.

The two furlers. The inner forestay is tensioned by the halyard.



The inner forestay top swivel.

[Renegde_Sailor]

Originally Posted by The Yacht Rigger

For a removeable storm jib on a babystay, if you want to get away from wire, and set it up on a furler, I've set a few up on "bottom up" endless line type furlers. For instance the bamar EVO series. I like the Bamars because if you size it correctly you can use the same drum for an asym spin with an AT cable. Dual purpose.
So I setup a storm sail on an AT cable, and use a 2:1 halyard for hoisting. So it's easy to get great tension, and then you just run the furling line and sheets (or sheet if self tacking) aft. Allows you to furl/unfurl and control the sheeting from the cockpit, on a small sail, and when you furl and drop the sail, all you're left with is a 2:1 halyard - which can just be clipped to the deck or mast base as needed.

I am not familiar with AT cable?



From how you are describing it, it sounds like a great setup, better than a removable forestay, I am assuming that you need then two halyards to control it, one to tension the furler, and one to tension the luff?

[The Yacht Rigger]

Originally Posted by Renegde_Sailor

I am not familiar with AT cable?



From how you are describing it, it sounds like a great setup, better than a removable forestay, I am assuming that you need then two halyards to control it, one to tension the furler, and one to tension the luff?

No, the luff tension is taken care of by a lashing. Essentially the luff of the sail is a synthetic "anti torsion - AT" cable, so when you tension the 2:1 halyard, the luff is tensioned.
So it's just the furling line and sheet you need to adjust.

[Renegde_Sailor]

Originally Posted by The Yacht Rigger

No, the luff tension is taken care of by a lashing. Essentially the luff of the sail is a synthetic "anti torsion - AT" cable, so when you tension the 2:1 halyard, the luff is tensioned.
So it's just the furling line and sheet you need to adjust.

Is this the EVO or the EVO S you are using here?

[The Yacht Rigger]

Originally Posted by Renegde_Sailor

Is this the EVO or the EVO S you are using here?

Typically just the EVO.

[Chotu]

I should note that The Yacht Rigger already has my martingale stay done and ready to ship.

Only reason it’s not shipping today is I don’t have an address to ship to yet ha ha.

I am moving locations right now but as soon as I get in somewhere, and can set up somewhere to receive it, I will have them ship it and then I’ll install it.

[Renegde_Sailor]

Originally Posted by The Yacht Rigger

Typically just the EVO.

I have been looking at the system quite a bit, if I was to replace my forestay with it, then for my Jib and Genoa, they would just need to be swapped to the soft hanks?

[The Yacht Rigger]

Originally Posted by Renegde_Sailor

I have been looking at the system quite a bit, if I was to replace my forestay with it, then for my Jib and Genoa, they would just need to be swapped to the soft hanks?

What kind of boat is this for?

Honestly not something I've considered.

[Renegde_Sailor]

Originally Posted by The Yacht Rigger

What kind of boat is this for?

Honestly not something I've considered.

1966 Spencer 42 Sloop

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Renegde_Sailor

I have been looking at the system quite a bit, if I was to replace my forestay with it, then for my Jib and Genoa, they would just need to be swapped to the soft hanks?

Soft hanks replacing the foil luff rope and foam is the easiest and cheapest solution for an existing sail. That’s what we did with our previous roller furling jib when we converted to the structural forestay. The hanks were about 2’ apart. Even bronze or SS hanks will work on a fibre rope if they’re brand new.

The fancier solution is a zipper luff. It will still have a couple of soft hanks top and bottom. When we had a new jib made that’s what we did.