Chotu’s Advanced Standing Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

[Chotu]

The thing that introduces error to the geometry of the rig is curvature of the deck. And of course the deck house being in the way of things.

I suppose I can probably work all of that out with a few hours of very careful measuring and very complicated measuring.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Chotu

The thing that introduces error to the geometry of the rig is curvature of the deck. And of course the deck house being in the way of things.

I suppose I can probably work all of that out with a few hours of very careful measuring and very complicated measuring.

I’m not sure you need to worry about the deck shape. The key thing is to get the rake correct. That will be with reference to the base of the mast, wherever that is mounted on your riser. Use your halyards to hold the mast in the position with correct rake and roughly centred (weird that a rigger was worried about supporting a mast with halyards; it’s done all the time).

Now you have two options:
1) use a tape measure or simply the forestay itself to find or mark the pin to pin length of the forestay. If using a turnbuckle, that will be close enough.
2) exhaustively measure your deck, cabin and whatever else so that you can take an exactly horizontal J measurement from your front beam forestay pin to the virtual front face of the mast. You hopefully know the exact height of the forestay pin at the hounds from the base of the mast, plus the distance of your riser to the intersection of the horizontal line from the front beam. Geometry will give you the length of the forestay. Remember that there will be two toggles top and bottom to provide the required articulation, plus a turnbuckle if you’ll have one, so all those shorten the actual forestay. Use offsets from the respective pin holes on your front beam and at the hounds.

Good luck with it!

[Chotu]

Thank you for the wishes of good luck!

That’s the one measurement that is the trickiest. Well, that and the measurement to the swept back chain plates.

Measuring from the face of the mast to the pin on the front beam is where deck curvature and things comes into play. My last Rigger was having difficulty with that. I have had difficulty with that. I’m sure it can be done.

It was especially difficult trying to figure out the sweep radius of the self Tacker.

I can use the topping lift pretty easily to do the rake. That should be no problem. A nice stout weight on that will translate the linear measurement of the movement of the masthead to the deck.

[s/v Jedi]

I agree about using halyards. A halyard can take thousands of pounds and the forces to keep the mast upright is only tens of pounds.

I think riggers sense your insecurity on the subject and feed it so that they can charge more hours

When I replace a stay, I have an old one that fits which I can copy. You don’t have that, so simply finish the top end and attach it to the mast, then when the mast position is good, bring it to the chainplate and mark the pin position. Now put the hardware with pin along the wire precisely and mark where to cut the wire, then attach the Stalok and you’re done.

For your shrouds I believe you have existing shrouds that are too short and you want to use Dyneema to extend them? You know I am not for that but the jib is simple, just look up the strength of the wire and the 7mm Dyneema you have at hand and do the math of how many turns you need. Each loop is twice the strength of the Dyneema but make it double the wire strength to cooe with uneven balanced loops, creep etc.
With the turnbuckles extended maximum splice the ends of the Dyneema together and tension it. If it stretches too much simply adjust the splice to make it shorter and repeat.

[The Yacht Rigger]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Fxykty: that was a GUIDE! Thank you soooo much for these posts.

I was going to do the halyard trick which I have done in the past but one of the rigors I was talking to along the way said that was crazy. That’s what got me thinking maybe I’m not supposed to do that.

I had mentioned steadying the mast of the halyards then cutting the forestay. And he was shocked about that. I don’t know why.

Also it’s good to hear that I could just reef that other used sail. I was thinking about it and thinking the same thing. I have other ones that already came on the rig that fit. I know the jib won’t fit properly, but the triangle top main will.

The only thing here is there are no winches. There is no running rigging. So it’s a bit tricky. Hoping I can create the proper tension in the halyards at the cleats.

RE using halyards forward. I MUCH prefer to take a separate dedicated piece of low stretch line - dyneema - and physically tie it around the mast above the headstay, and use that to "static" tie to a strong point forward - IE your bow beam. We use truckers hitches.
It's definitely happened in the past to other riggers - the halyards can roll on the masthead sheaves and allow the mast to fall backwards. Actually happened to a rigger I know while he was up the rig - he almost died. Then you back up the static line with halyards. You retrieve it later once the mast is secure.

Or, have the crane wait while you measure rake and form the sta-lok fitting and connect the headstay. Just don't leave the rig supported on halyards only.

[The Yacht Rigger]

Originally Posted by Chotu

So there is a boat that is changing sails and we have the same size rig. The jib is perfect. The mainsail is just 3 feet too long along the luff, but fits well otherwise and is a square top.

Should I pick these up? Will the mainsheet be useable if it’s too long?

In the past we've modified a couple mains for people who have had their masts shortened. Usually it's pretty pricey, in the $3000 range for the mod - because they are essentially rebuilding the whole bottom of the sail and have to add new reef points - or at least one reef point.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by The Yacht Rigger

RE using halyards forward. I MUCH prefer to take a separate dedicated piece of low stretch line - dyneema - and physically tie it around the mast above the headstay, and use that to "static" tie to a strong point forward - IE your bow beam. We use truckers hitches.
It's definitely happened in the past to other riggers - the halyards can roll on the masthead sheaves and allow the mast to fall backwards. Actually happened to a rigger I know while he was up the rig - he almost died. Then you back up the static line with halyards. You retrieve it later once the mast is secure.

Or, have the crane wait while you measure rake and form the sta-lok fitting and connect the headstay. Just don't leave the rig supported on halyards only.

Ideally, the crane will wait. I hope.

My halyard is 13mm (1/2”) sk-78 dyneema if that makes any difference.

[The Yacht Rigger]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Ideally, the crane will wait. I hope.

My halyard is 13mm (1/2”) sk-78 dyneema if that makes any difference.

Its more about the halyard rolling on the sheave. So much easier to just have the crane wait.
Or, just use a static line - completely safe that way, as long as you trust your knot tying capabilities.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by The Yacht Rigger

Its more about the halyard rolling on the sheave. So much easier to just have the crane wait.
Or, just use a static line - completely safe that way, as long as you trust your knot tying capabilities.

OK. That makes some sense. When you think about it, at the angle the stay goes at, if there’s not an incredible amount of tension, it could run right down the halyard like you are describing.

Thanks for the tip of caution there.

I will certainly have the crane wait even if it costs a lot more.

I haven’t done a Stalock yet, even though I have looked online, so that will add to the crane price lol. I’m not quick

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I agree about using halyards. A halyard can take thousands of pounds and the forces to keep the mast upright is only tens of pounds.

I think riggers sense your insecurity on the subject and feed it so that they can charge more hours

When I replace a stay, I have an old one that fits which I can copy. You don’t have that, so simply finish the top end and attach it to the mast, then when the mast position is good, bring it to the chainplate and mark the pin position. Now put the hardware with pin along the wire precisely and mark where to cut the wire, then attach the Stalok and you’re done.

For your shrouds I believe you have existing shrouds that are too short and you want to use Dyneema to extend them? You know I am not for that but the jib is simple, just look up the strength of the wire and the 7mm Dyneema you have at hand and do the math of how many turns you need. Each loop is twice the strength of the Dyneema but make it double the wire strength to cooe with uneven balanced loops, creep etc.
With the turnbuckles extended maximum splice the ends of the Dyneema together and tension it. If it stretches too much simply adjust the splice to make it shorter and repeat.

I seriously think you are right about people charging more whenever they can.

I have talked to several places that ask for a picture of your boat first and then give you pricing once they look and see how much they think they can take you for.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by The Yacht Rigger

RE using halyards forward. I MUCH prefer to take a separate dedicated piece of low stretch line - dyneema - and physically tie it around the mast above the headstay, and use that to "static" tie to a strong point forward - IE your bow beam. We use truckers hitches.
It's definitely happened in the past to other riggers - the halyards can roll on the masthead sheaves and allow the mast to fall backwards. Actually happened to a rigger I know while he was up the rig - he almost died. Then you back up the static line with halyards. You retrieve it later once the mast is secure.

Or, have the crane wait while you measure rake and form the sta-lok fitting and connect the headstay. Just don't leave the rig supported on halyards only.

Not sure what stories those riggers told you, but the mast can not roll on the masthead sheave and fall backwards. It is impossible by laws of nature. The only way this can happen is if the halyard is released at the mast winch.

With the main halyard as backstay and the genoa halyard as forestay, both on the mast winches, you can set the rake perfectly and nothing rolls over sheaves.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Not sure what stories those riggers told you, but the mast can not roll on the masthead sheave and fall backwards. It is impossible by laws of nature. The only way this can happen is if the halyard is released at the mast winch.

With the main halyard as backstay and the genoa halyard as forestay, both on the mast winches, you can set the rake perfectly and nothing rolls over sheaves.

And if I have no running rigging (winches) yet?

I have only cleats.

Winches are in a box. Getting the rig up so I can then do the running rigging

I think the only way it can slide on the sheaves is if the rope has stretch.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Chotu

And if I have no running rigging (winches) yet?

I have only cleats.

Winches are in a box. Getting the rig up so I can then do the running rigging

I think the only way it can slide on the sheaves is if the rope has stretch.

Without winches you have no control. The winches must be mounted before stepping the mast.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Without winches you have no control. The winches must be mounted before stepping the mast.

While I greatly appreciate your input, more than you realize, I don’t think that’s correct. I can certainly have my rig vertical and then work on the running rigging. That’s the plan of every rigger I have been to, not that they have been great, and was my plan all along.

You have to get the mast vertical first and then you can work on everything. Set everything up. It gives you the ability to play with real things when you are setting things up. Real lines. Real dimensions. Not just guesses and measurements.

I think a lot of times when you are thinking of my boat you end up thinking of your boat. Since mine is brand new it doesn’t have anything. Just picture a blank canvas. Much harder.

It will take weeks to do the plinth for the winches and a month probably to do all the running rigging items

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Chotu

While I greatly appreciate your input, more than you realize, I don’t think that’s correct. I can certainly have my rig vertical and then work on the running rigging. That’s the plan of every rigger I have been to, not that they have been great, and was my plan all along.

You have to get the mast vertical first and then you can work on everything. Set everything up. It gives you the ability to play with real things when you are setting things up. Real lines. Real dimensions. Not just guesses and measurements.

I think a lot of times when you are thinking of my boat you end up thinking of your boat. Since mine is brand new it doesn’t have anything. Just picture a blank canvas. Much harder.

It will take weeks to do the plinth for the winches and a month probably to do all the running rigging items

So you see people step masts without having winches mounted, at least to the mast itself? Please post evidence, I always see them mount the mast hardware incl. Winches first, then step the mast.