Chotu's Rigging Thread - Time to Go Fast

[s/v Jedi]

A long time ago I was a rigger’s apprentice with Jonas in Trinidad when he did new rigging for me. He was funny: just as I was to try my first swage fitting ever, he would remind me how much it cost and how easy it is to f it up …. that gets your attention quickly when you realize it’s your fitting, your money

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Rigger says everything but uhmwpe expands and can cause binding. They ran into issues with that. Suggests uhmwpe since it cannot absorb water and expand.

Thoughts?

I was looking at getting the delrin/acetal ones with the bronze inserts.

Ultra-High Molecular Weight Polyethylene (UHMW) has a 0.01% Water Absorption Rating @ 24H/Saturation.
Delrin’s Water Absorbtion Rating is 0.25%, which is still considered "low".

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Chotu

…



today we were talking about the outhaul. He’s talking about one that goes through the boom with a purchase inside the boom. And I am just barely understanding this. And then he’s talking about a strap that they use these days that goes around the boom. Something a little bit more modern. And it just comes out so fast because he knows it so well and I’m like struggling to try to understand everything. Ha ha ha.



we were also talking about reefing lines. He was saying that you only need a couple. I think only one if I recall it correctly and it would do two reefs? Is that right? I think we will have to revisit that. That kind of went over my head.

But he was saying you only need a couple of wreaths anyway. Pick the ones you use most often. Otherwise you have too many lines going everywhere and a lot of resistance. if I correctly understood him, I would think I would want the first reef and the deepest reef. And just forget that middle reef.





…

Long post with lots of issues so I’ll touch on three: outhaul, clew strap, and reefs. As you probably know I have a first generation Outremer 55L, designed and built in the days of performance and light weight are key for fun and safe sailing. So a little bit bigger than your boat but otherwise similar in sailing characteristics. 6 years of ownership and 2 years of full time live aboard and active cruising. I race monohulls, but strictly cruise my cat. Your rigger is experienced with fully (professionally) crewed cruiser/racer cats that day sail or limited ocean race.

Outhaul: KISS! There is no need on a cruising cat with a stiff mast that doesn’t change shape, high modulus sails, and full battens to have a fancy outhaul. Or even to adjust the outhaul at all. There is just no need. So just a simple 10mm UHMWPE line, eye splice girth hitched to your mainsail clew and secured by a clutch or jammer at the front of the boom. Splice some thicker line into the core and sew on a polyester cover where you want to clutch/jam it. We match our lowest batten’s depth.

Clew strap: UHMWPE or polyester 2” webbing with Velcro, long enough to wrap 3 or 4 times (if polyester) or 1.5 times (UHMWPE) around the boom. It goes through the mainsail clew ring and around the boom. It carries all the leech load of your full main - likely up to 3-4 ton.

Reefs: if you’re only planning on coastal and short offshores then 2 reefs might do you, but seriously, any performance cruising cat is going to have a really (REALLY) deep third reef for when SHTF. So depending on the size of your mainsail and when you need to put in the first reef, you’ll need a second reef for when it’s serious but not crazy. Forget about single line reefing (both clew and tack with one line) - that’s for people who are scared of their mast and you have yours in your cockpit. Yes, the lines are long, but use 8mm or 10mm single braid UHMWPE and they don’t bulk up, are slippery, and are easy on the sail. Our three reef lines are 10mm first and 8mm second and third; 17.5m, 25m, and 35m long respectively.

We use our full main 45%, first reef 30%, second 23% and third reef 2% of the time. If no second reef then our first reef would need to be extra deep, which means too much power from the full main before reefing. Or no third reef, so you’re committing to not sailing to windward in a storm or using a trysail. Neither is a good option for a cruising cat if you plan going more remote or across oceans.

Your boom should have bales or something else to hold each reef line in the correct position along the boom: slightly aft of the respective leech clew position when fully extended aft (no foot curve).

BTW, we have LFRs built into the reef clews, so the bare UHMWPE lines slide through with no friction. If you’ve got a mainsail with SS clew rings then follow SWL’s instructions in CF for the BullsEye Weave soft shackle with LFR.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Ultra-High Molecular Weight Polyethylene (UHMW) has a 0.01% Water Absorption Rating @ 24H/Saturation.
Delrin’s Water Absorbtion Rating is 0.25%, which is still considered "low".

Thanks for those facts, Gord.

My rudder bushings are Delrin and one of them is down in the water so it’s pretty wet. And I haven’t noticed any issues.

It is nice to know that my Rigger is that much of a perfectionist however.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Long post with lots of issues so I’ll touch on three: outhaul, clew strap, and reefs. As you probably know I have a first generation Outremer 55L, designed and built in the days of performance and light weight are key for fun and safe sailing. So a little bit bigger than your boat but otherwise similar in sailing characteristics. 6 years of ownership and 2 years of full time live aboard and active cruising. I race monohulls, but strictly cruise my cat. Your rigger is experienced with fully (professionally) crewed cruiser/racer cats that day sail or limited ocean race.

Outhaul: KISS! There is no need on a cruising cat with a stiff mast that doesn’t change shape, high modulus sails, and full battens to have a fancy outhaul. Or even to adjust the outhaul at all. There is just no need. So just a simple 10mm UHMWPE line, eye splice girth hitched to your mainsail clew and secured by a clutch or jammer at the front of the boom. Splice some thicker line into the core and sew on a polyester cover where you want to clutch/jam it. We match our lowest batten’s depth.

Clew strap: UHMWPE or polyester 2” webbing with Velcro, long enough to wrap 3 or 4 times (if polyester) or 1.5 times (UHMWPE) around the boom. It goes through the mainsail clew ring and around the boom. It carries all the leech load of your full main - likely up to 3-4 ton.

Reefs: if you’re only planning on coastal and short offshores then 2 reefs might do you, but seriously, any performance cruising cat is going to have a really (REALLY) deep third reef for when SHTF. So depending on the size of your mainsail and when you need to put in the first reef, you’ll need a second reef for when it’s serious but not crazy. Forget about single line reefing (both clew and tack with one line) - that’s for people who are scared of their mast and you have yours in your cockpit. Yes, the lines are long, but use 8mm or 10mm single braid UHMWPE and they don’t bulk up, are slippery, and are easy on the sail. Our three reef lines are 10mm first and 8mm second and third; 17.5m, 25m, and 35m long respectively.

We use our full main 45%, first reef 30%, second 23% and third reef 2% of the time. If no second reef then our first reef would need to be extra deep, which means too much power from the full main before reefing. Or no third reef, so you’re committing to not sailing to windward in a storm or using a trysail. Neither is a good option for a cruising cat if you plan going more remote or across oceans.

Your boom should have bales or something else to hold each reef line in the correct position along the boom: slightly aft of the respective leech clew position when fully extended aft (no foot curve).

BTW, we have LFRs built into the reef clews, so the bare UHMWPE lines slide through with no friction. If you’ve got a mainsail with SS clew rings then follow SWL’s instructions in CF for the BullsEye Weave soft shackle with LFR.

OK, let’s add you to the list of people like my Rigger that make my brain explode lol

thank you for the post. I will keep trying to understand it all.

The trouble is, I just don’t know the difference between what you are describing and what he describes. But you are definitely right. He has done a lot of professionally crewed boats. A lot of famous people. Lots. A good amount of Gunboat owners are famous. but they have a crew. and then other than that he does racing on multi hulls. One thing I know for sure is this thing is going to have some performance potential once he’s done with it.

But yes. I need to know the distinction between cruising and racing and get that right. Especially because I am single handing. I want things really simple and safe.

I think this is also why he disagrees with the symmetric spinnaker that you like. he thinks I’ll be really unhappy with it. But if I can put something up there and not mess around with it my friend making good progress downwind that’s all that I need to be happy

That clew strap is exactly what he described, but there is some stuff in the way on the boom.

Deep reef: Could this be why so many gunboats flip? Ha ha maybe they don’t have that reef?

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Outhaul: KISS! There is no need on a cruising cat with a stiff mast that doesn’t change shape, high modulus sails, and full battens to have a fancy outhaul. Or even to adjust the outhaul at all. There is just no need. So just a simple 10mm UHMWPE line, eye splice girth hitched to your mainsail clew and secured by a clutch or jammer at the front of the boom. Splice some thicker line into the core and sew on a polyester cover where you want to clutch/jam it. We match our lowest batten’s depth.

I have to completely disagree with you here. The outhaul on a cat is one of the most important performance features. Adjustment can add 1/2 a knot especially in light winds. Many ignore this and even cover the foot of the sail with a stack pack. It is very simple to lead a single line back to the cockpit and doesn't need any additional purchase within the boom.

Originally Posted by fxykty

Clew strap: UHMWPE or polyester 2” webbing with Velcro, long enough to wrap 3 or 4 times (if polyester) or 1.5 times (UHMWPE) around the boom. It goes through the mainsail clew ring and around the boom. It carries all the leech load of your full main - likely up to 3-4 ton.

Following on from my out haul comments above the loop around the boom needs to be loose enough to allow movement along the boom. These straps are a much better method than metal sliders that can easily be ripped out of the boom track.

Originally Posted by fxykty

Reefs: if you’re only planning on coastal and short offshores then 2 reefs might do you, but seriously, any performance cruising cat is going to have a really (REALLY) deep third reef for when SHTF. So depending on the size of your mainsail and when you need to put in the first reef, you’ll need a second reef for when it’s serious but not crazy. Forget about single line reefing (both clew and tack with one line) - that’s for people who are scared of their mast and you have yours in your cockpit. Yes, the lines are long, but use 8mm or 10mm single braid UHMWPE and they don’t bulk up, are slippery, and are easy on the sail. Our three reef lines are 10mm first and 8mm second and third; 17.5m, 25m, and 35m long respectively.

Spot on. You need 3 reefs. 6 lines, 3 on the leech and 3 on the luff is no big deal. In my case all 6 lines go back to the cockpit. I have 4 reefs and rig 1, 2 and 3 for coastal and 2,3 and 4 when off shore. The 4th reef is my storm sail and IMO is a much better option than trying to rig a trisail.

Originally Posted by fxykty

Your boom should have bales or something else to hold each reef line in the correct position along the boom: slightly aft of the respective leech clew position when fully extended aft (no foot curve).

Even if you have bales, tie off the reefs around the boom not just to the bale.

Originally Posted by fxykty

BTW, we have LFRs built into the reef clews, so the bare UHMWPE lines slide through with no friction. If you’ve got a mainsail with SS clew rings then follow SWL’s instructions in CF for the BullsEye Weave soft shackle with LFR.

Yep. The biggest issue is chafe on the leech lines. Do not feed them through the reef clews use proper reef blocks. I have used Karver reef blocks in the past but have just replaced with Antal Sector Rings. Ordinary low friction rings with soft shackles (or as fxykty) also work.

[Chotu]

Good Lord. This is so difficult to understand. There are so many options and I don’t know what to do.

I will just remind my rigger that it is a single handed boat intended for cruising and everything should be kept as simple as possible.

And that I need all reefing active and brought to the plinth.

[s/v Jedi]

For reefing I completely agree that you don’t want single line reefing on an offshore cruiser.

That said, it is my experience that you don’t need the luff reefing lines. With a full batten main, when you put slack in the halyard and winch down the leech reef line, the luff comes down by itself. Maybe when sailing downwind it wouldn’t but then simply bring the boom in with the sheet before reefing.

I always use the same line for reefing the luff. It is tied with a bowline around the gooseneck, I put it through the reef cringle then down onto the mast winch. When not reefed, it is on my reef #0 and called a Cunningham.

Of course when you want to do all this from the cockpit then you need all the lines. I do all the reefing at the mast, which is much safer a place on our boat compared to most.

[Chotu]

Yes. All sail handling aside from dropping it and putting on the sail cover is from the salon in my boat.

If that makes any difference.

Also:. Everyone has a stack pack. I'm wondering why now especially after reading Tupaia's post.

Is it that bad to use sail ties and a sail cover?

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Yes. All sail handling aside from dropping it and putting on the sail cover is from the salon in my boat.

If that makes any difference.

Then you will have six extra lines, six extra clutches for reefing

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

That said, it is my experience that you don’t need the luff reefing lines. With a full batten main, when you put slack in the halyard and winch down the leech reef line, the luff comes down by itself. Maybe when sailing downwind it wouldn’t but then simply bring the boom in with the sheet before reefing.

A lot depends on mast rake and boom angle. Many cats have raked masts and a kicked up boom. Sailmakers often refer to the sail with such an arrangement as a club footed main.



The problem arises because the horizontal distance from the reefing clew horizontally or perpendicular to the mast is shorter than the distance from the clew along the boom to the goose-neck. Having battens positioned (approx 400mm) above reefing points will limit this because of the flexibility at the leech end compared to having battens close to or below reefing points where there is no room for movement. Pulling down on the leech from the end of the boom pulls the luff away from the mast and the sail get stuck. Having a down-hall on the luff is therefore helpful in some circumstances or conditions.


For the same reason with mast and boom arrangements like this it is best to not have intermediate cars between batten cars.

[Joli]

You're getting good advice from everyone here. But it doesn't sound like you've done much sailing? Sailing offshore you need to be intimately aware of reefing and proficient at doing it. Is it possible to go sailing with your rigger so you understand the mechanics of reefing and get some coaching? Last thing you want is a cluster when the weather is changing rapidly

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

A lot depends on mast rake and boom angle. Many cats have raked masts and a kicked up boom. Sailmakers often refer to the sail with such an arrangement as a club footed main.

The problem arises because the horizontal distance from the reefing clew horizontally or perpendicular to the mast is shorter than the distance from the clew along the boom to the goose-neck. Having battens positioned (approx 400mm) above reefing points will limit this because of the flexibility at the leech end compared to having battens close to or below reefing points where there is no room for movement. Pulling down on the leech from the end of the boom pulls the luff away from the mast and the sail get stuck. Having a down-hall on the luff is therefore helpful in some circumstances or conditions.

For the same reason with mast and boom arrangements like this it is best to not have intermediate cars between batten cars.

I have the feeling you are absolutely right, but I’m having trouble envisioning how the luff is pulled away from the mast…

I obviously am missing clues because I’m having trouble hoisting our main which I think has the same kind of trouble, but then again, I can reed just fine.

Why do have cats kicked up booms? Because there’s no room for the aft end? Mine is almost horizontal (sail cut up a bit at the leech) but the end of the boom goes up higher for each reef point, to keep it away from the water, which should not be a problem for a cat…

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Why do have cats kicked up booms? Because there’s no room for the aft end? Mine is almost horizontal (sail cut up a bit at the leech) but the end of the boom goes up higher for each reef point, to keep it away from the water, which should not be a problem for a cat…

I'd expect it's due to clearance, but wanting that tiny bit of extra sail area from only raising the aft end of the boom vs raising the whole boom. I can't think of any other reason to do it.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Joli

You're getting good advice from everyone here. But it doesn't sound like you've done much sailing? Sailing offshore you need to be intimately aware of reefing and proficient at doing it. Is it possible to go sailing with your rigger so you understand the mechanics of reefing and get some coaching? Last thing you want is a cluster when the weather is changing rapidly

I have been sailing for 35 years straight.

Just never one of these super high-performance Catamarans.

they are not exactly the same thing as 1980s monohulls.

I understand the mechanics of reefing. What I don’t understand are these options of having two lines or two reef points when I should be having more.

I don’t think your comment is really very productive because you didn’t answer anything