Code Zero

[JPA Cate]

Yes, with a dyneema luff, it can make a smaller package, for sure, the Code Zero. You'll take a hit on the 130 if you ditch it--you're talking about completely re-doing your inventory. Even though in good condition for its age, I suspect the 110 doesn't have very much life in it. I would suggest keeping the fabrics simple, at least for the time being, and suited to the nature of the boat.

Ann

[Markhunter1097]

No point in having a uv strip on it, just adds weight and will change the Reece shape over time. Also give you a false sense of security to leave it up when not using it, which is bad because if the wind gets up then that is a much harder time to get it down. As the sailed is furled it is very easy to drop into a bag and put away, unlike a conventional genoa that has to be flaked. Less lines hanging around the boat to fall into the prop too.
The multihull crowd use a sail called a screecher, similar to a code zero, and they are left up all the time, I see many through my factory to be washed as they just don't get enough use.
Get a nice sunbrella bag and then you can leave it in that on the deck, that's what I do and it works well.

[Markhunter1097]

[Markhunter1097]

Above is a nice pic of it

[Markhunter1097]

Reece = leech

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Yes, with a dyneema luff, it can make a smaller package, for sure, the Code Zero. You'll take a hit on the 130 if you ditch it--you're talking about completely re-doing your inventory. Even though in good condition for its age, I suspect the 110 doesn't have very much life in it. I would suggest keeping the fabrics simple, at least for the time being, and suited to the nature of the boat.

Ann

I'm keeping the 135, the 110 isn't that bad and a friend suggested putting it up if I knew I would be doing a high wind passage, save the 135, don't blow it out.
However in winds that high I usually go with just the main and staysail, and accept going a little slower, but its usually a better ride.

The old Staysail had much more wear than the Genoa did.
Only one other owner actually sailed this boat, an older couple in Hilton Head SC. They put on the furling boom and day sailed her.
I suspect the Genoa was too much for them and they sailed the main and Staysail and just went slow, they were sailing and it may have been all they were physically capable of? They other two owners just didn't use the boat, last owner was afraid of it, only went out with a hired Capt. He was afraid of docking I believe, and she can be a bear in tight quarters amongst the mega Yachts, have to respect inertia and think way ahead of the boat.

[Jim Cate]

Getting into this a bit late, 64, but I'm a bit concerned about the 2.2 oz nylon. Seems to me that this material will be so stretchy that the sail will not be useful except on pretty deep angles. The more common 2.5-3.5 oz dacron material would make the sail god on a pretty tight reach, and not hurt much downwind.

I wonder if any of our resident sailmakers would comment on that?

Jim

[lamadriver]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

I wonder if any of our resident sailmakers would comment on that?

Jim

One did in post 22

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by lamadriver

One did in post 22

He didn't really make a value judgement on the 2.2 oz nylon. Said it would be stretchy, but didn't advise on how that would affect 64's usage. My amateur opinion is that it would rapidly loose its shape or burst... like to know what a pro thinks.

Jim

[B00B00]

Yes Nylon is a trade off in shape holding. It will stretch under load at the tighter sheeting angles but will likely still return to its designed shape again once the load comes off. The Nylon is much cheaper though so if it was the difference between not having it or having it then I would go with Nylon. Maybe 3.5oz would be better depending on the boat size. I have done many nylon Zeros with happy customers. The design needs to be slightly different though and they are slightly deeper right from the start. Deeper zeros often need internal cable top down furling.
Another good option is a polyester spinnaker fabric thats also a pretty good option.
If I had to pick between a 3oz crosscut dacron and a 2.5oz radial cut nylon for a similar price then I would probably choose the radial nylon.

You wont break nylon, its got the best tenacity of all the fibres (stretches instead of breaking) but has weak UV resistance so keep it out of the sun when ever possible.

Also worth noting that the type of cable used it VERY important. The Hampidjan anti torsion cable with clamps is a good mix of torsional ability, stretch resistance and price and can be done yourself. I would always go bigger diameter cable, don't skimp on that. Remember that a certain proportion of the cable is in stretch resistance and the rest in torsion and vice versa (more of one will compromise the other) so a bigger diameter cable will have more of both. Nothing worse than having the top furl badly.

The actual furling unit doesnt seem to make that much difference especially if the furling loop in on an electric winch, if you are doing it by hand then having good bearings makes a huge difference, or go up one size in furler unit. the closer you are to the max load the siffer the furler will be. In other world spec on thats at least double what you think the max load will ever be. Selden and harken and I think furlex now do thimbles, furlers and swivels with built in clamps which also makes life much easier to setup yourself.

[Jim Cate]

Yes Nylon is a trade off in shape holding. It will stretch under load at the tighter sheeting angles but will likely still return to its designed shape again once the load comes off.

Boo, thanks for that, and the rest of t he post as well. Just the sort of info I was interested in, and which willl help folks make decisions when Zero hour arrives.

Jim

[UNCIVILIZED]

A few things need clarifying on this. The most pressing is what kind of wind angles, & wind speeds do you want the sail to be optimized for? As with a true Code 0, it's designed a lot more with an eye towards windward work in the light stuff. Which means (usually) a 2:1 halyard for better luff tension, less stretchy fabrics, & a continuous line furler which furls from the bottom up. Much as on a conventional jib furler, just free flying.

Now these sails can be flow well off of the wind, & surely do boost performance over what a jib would. But they're a far cry from a reacher or runner spinnaker: In terms of both shape, & sail area overall.

Cruising Code Zeros tend to be made of stretchier fabrics, have less luff tension, tend to be flown on top down, spinnaker furlers, & do less well with upwind or reaching work.

Also, if you're adding a prod to fly the sail from, for a true Code 0 it'll need to be much stronger & stiffer, & likely will also require it's own bobstay to counter the vertical loads exerted by the sail's luff tension. And the enhanced stiffness in the prod over one for a Cruising Code 0 isn't just to counter this vertical loading, but for the athwartships loading as well. Since a true Code 0 applies more loads to the prod transversely, by virtue of being a more jib-like sail, flown closer to the wind.

Much of the above also influences sail fabric choices, style of cut, & overall shape. And shape is influence too by boat type, & her performance (based on hull type, etc.) at different wind angles & different wind speeds. So that a (true) Code 0 designed for a J 120 will have a shape that's different than one for an IP like yours.


On the fiscal front. The cheapest route would be to get a pre-loved cruising Code 0 or asym kite, with or without a sock, flown from the stem, or an ATN "Tacker". From there you can add a sock or furler if you like. As well as a prod or not. Since cruising kites benefit from prods, but don't need them, persay. And they can always be added later, too.
Then at the most expensive end of the spectrum you have a true Code 0, with a furler, & a specialized anti-torsion cable, a prod with bobstay, & a 2:1 (non-stretchy) halyard. Sometimes with additional purchase for tensioning the luff at the tack of the sail/furler.

Note too that since you already have a substantial sprit, adding a prod of length to it could be tricky. Both in terms of finding the real estate on it to mount one, & regarding dealing with the loads that the prod generates, especially from side to side. And on a lot of racing boats, prods for Code 0's wind up being A-frame affairs built of carbon to deal with some of this. This along with the fact that some sport boat makers won't warranty their OEM sprits for Code 0s, only for asym kites.

Though to get some ideas on what's around, there are a lot of aftermarket deck mount sprit kits available. As well as some through the bow mounted ones, much akin to those that you see on J boats.


Regardless of what route you choose though, adding a big foresail like this tends to make a substantial difference in how much you sail (vs. motor). Along with adding a lot to the fun factor. Up to, & including flying the staysail along with it.
And given her rating, your boat should respond well to the added sail area (PHRF 165 or so). So it's a good addition to your quiver (of sails).


PS: If you're "tuning" your mast for such sails while it's down, keep in mind the 2:1 halyard issue (& loads) from Code 0s, when designing & adding hardware, sheaves, & anchoring points. Better to build it too strong/for these sails & not need it, than vice versa. Though the halyard itself & much of the hardware can be added later, with the mast up.

[weavis]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Boo, thanks for that, and the rest of t he post as well. Just the sort of info I was interested in, and which willl help folks make decisions when Zero hour arrives.

Jim

+1
Thank you very much. I was waiting on the answer to Jims Query...

[Kestrahl]

The Nylon won't be so prone to bursting as it stretches. UV can be a big problem for Nylon, leave it in the sun for a two weeks to month and it tears like tissue. So if used a lot heavy Polyester spinnaker cloth is a better choice and the price is the same.

Having a UV cover and leaving it up, depends on your location.

[a64pilot]

Uncivilized, BooBoo, thanks.
I'm new to this and am at the stage that I understand your points, but am not at the stage of likely doing it right myself.
In truth I'm at Mack Sails and will observe of course what they do and ask lots of questions, but am relying on them to do it right. At least with IP guys and here in Fl they have a good rep and I doubt they will let a botched job out of the shop.
I'm here having the chainplates replaced and standing rigging, everything inspected etc.