Configuring a hoist system

[Madwand]

I'd like to keep this as simple as possible. I'm trying to avoid this conversation turning into a technical rock climbing, whole new sack of tools thread. I have an ATM mast climber and good bosun's chair, but this is very inefficient, yet very secure. Too much work.

I would rather use two double pulleys in this configuration:
But the bottom pulley would be a fiddle with a cam cleat. This is exactly what i have for hoisting my outboard from the dinghy and it works great. But it seems that would be unsafe for supportimg me as the clam could be knocked open while I'm working. And that will allow me to stand up.

Assuming I'm trying to stay as close this idea as possible, how can I secure this line? I CAN use my two ascenders from ATN to secure me to my halyard that will terminate at the top of the mast or wherever I stop it, once I get up there. And that will allow me to stand as well.

[UNCIVILIZED]

The setup you're trying to build is much akin to the one I've used for decades. So it is quite secure, & can be "tuned" to make a lot of chores aloft much easier.

In order to ensure that the line doesn't release on you (from the cam) while you're working, use the portion of the line coming out of the block with the cam & tie multiple half hitches onto the line in the space between the upper & lower blocks. That way, when coupled with a 2nd safety line, you're fully free to turn your attention to working aloft.

A couple of other features worth adding, are a ratchet block with a cam, instead of just a block with a cam. It'll make going up a lot easier, & you can switch off the cam whenever you like, such as for descent.

Also you'll want to rig up a couple of loops of webbing, hanging from an auto-lock, screw gate carabiner. So that once you get as high as you can with your block & tackle, you clip the carabiner to the attachment point that your upper block is hooked on to. And you can then use the bottoms of the loops of webbing to stand up, thus getting you another foot or two higher, vertically. Which will let you see, & work on some of the items atop the mast. Such as the Windex, or antennas for example.

If you want me to post the full descripton of my rig, LMK, as there are a number of small but useful tricks, that you might want to add to yours.


EDIT: Much of the details of my rig, as well as tips for going aloft can be found in this thread, which it's worth a read http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...st-131448.html

[Madwand]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

Also you'll want to rig up a couple of loops of webbing, hanging from an auto-lock, screw gate carabiner. So that once you get as high as you can with your block & tackle, you clip the carabiner to the attachment point that your upper block is hooked on to. And you can then use the bottoms of the loops of webbing to stand up, thus getting you another foot or two higher, vertically. Which will let you see, & work on some of the items atop the mast. Such as the Windex, or antennas for example.

I have that part from my ATN climber, I may have been editing that part while you were replying.

I believe my surveyor told me his ratcheted, but I never could get him to diagram his rig for me.

Ratchets evade me, I don't understand how that helps.

[UNCIVILIZED]

IIRC we've been through the explanation of ratchet blocks several times before, back in your roller furler control line thread. So it that didn't sink in for you, talk to the guys at Harken. They're the pro's.


I'm not sure why it's seemingly complex for you. Think of them as a check valve for line, which you can swtich on or off (open or closed) whenever you like. In order to make it a LOT easier to pull in a loaded line, as well as to hold it with relatively little effort.
So on a mast climbing rig using one means that you don't have to support but a fraction of your weight most of the time, including when you're pulling on said line to raise yourself up higher. Ero it saves a LOT of fatigue on your muscles when you're going up.

[Madwand]

I say that because after using the ratcheting furler pulley, I don't find that either the ratcheting, or the non turning actually accomplishes anything. I absolutely see no purpose in the ratcheting, the sheave turns, but just makes noise. I can see the non turning function may allow for a more controlled release of the line, due to friction. I don't see that either gives any advantage though.

I see the 6:1 advantage allowing me to pull myself up with two fingers, because the pulleys are compounding the effort, I don't see how clicking contributes to that.

So if someone tells me I need a ratcheting pulley, I get one, but merely because they said so.

[Matt Johnson]

The ratchet helps to prevent the line from slipping back after pulled. You pull the line, the ratchet clicks away, and it helps hold the rope from slipping back into the block while you grab the next handful.

Depending on your stamina and strength, 6:1 maybe pushing it for going up the mast.

Matt

[Madwand]

That's what's not getting through to me. There's nothing physically keeping the line from going back other than tension. The same tension I would be applying with a free spinning pulley. Maybe if I could pull myself from both types, I'd get it.

I've gone up with 1:1 just with my legs and that was exhausting. I've pulled my engine up with 6:1 and it was effortless compared to lifting it by hand. It's got to be easier.

[Madwand]

Ok, Harken says this
"The one thing it doesn't do is make it easier to pull in, except in as much as it reduces the energy expended holding the load after each pull." So it's easier to hold a load, although it doesn't make pulling any easier. That's a good thing. I guess the ratcheting must just be so you know it's on.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Madwand

Ok, Harken says this
"The one thing it doesn't do is make it easier to pull in, except in as much as it reduces the energy expended holding the load after each pull." So it's easier to hold a load, although it doesn't make pulling any easier. That's a good thing. I guess the ratcheting must just be so you know it's on.

The ratcheting is why it helps to hold the load.

It is the sound created by the mechanism which ensures that the sheave only turns one way - in the direction you are pulling.

Once you stop pulling, it can't back run the other way so you have rope to sheave friction helping to bear the load once you stop pulling.

[Madwand]

I got it. I can see now how it helps if it's not actively trying to turn the other way under load. That'll add a bit to my price, but if that and some rope get me up easier, it's worth it.

Am I right to calculate the amount of line I need at the height I want times the 5 lines in the picture above? For a 57 foot mast I did 60x5=300, that's convenient...and there should be 18' extra.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Madwand

Am I right to calculate the amount of line I need at the height I want times the 5 lines in the picture above? For a 57 foot mast I did 60x5=300, that's convenient...and there should be 18' extra.

Yep, 5 time the length.

[Suijin]

Ratcheting makes a difference if there's a substantial load on the line, as Harken states, as it saves energy holding the line. If you're hoisting yourself up the mast, that adds up over the course of the trip. It also provides a measure of safety as it takes much less tension to keep the line from slipping; less hand fatigue less chance of accidentally losing your grip.

If with your anticipated tackle you only need two fingers to pull yourself up then it's almost a non-issue. But the more purchase to your tackle the longer it's going to take you to get up and you're going to need a ton of line. The ratchet may allow you to go down one in purchase and still get up easily enough.

[tinkrman69]

Originally Posted by Madwand

I say that because after using the ratcheting furler pulley, I don't find that either the ratcheting, or the non turning actually accomplishes anything. I absolutely see no purpose in the ratcheting, the sheave turns, but just makes noise. I can see the non turning function may allow for a more controlled release of the line, due to friction. I don't see that either gives any advantage though.

I see the 6:1 advantage allowing me to pull myself up with two fingers, because the pulleys are compounding the effort, I don't see how clicking contributes to that.

So if someone tells me I need a ratcheting pulley, I get one, but merely because they said so.

If you have the right line size for your ratcheting block and test WITH weight on it, you'll find that it's hoist and when you release your grip it won't fall back. You can then pull on the reverse side of the locking sheeve and lower yourself or pull to the top and release the ratchet.

The line won't lock in the sheeve without the load on it and or if the line is too small or big

Ratcheting blocks work well. I've used them for years. Wouldn't go up without it