Correct reefing tack points on mast

[Bowdrie]

Those curled "Rams horns" are just waiting to catch a loose fold while your hoisting, no thanks.
My set up is similar to Jedi's.
The tack line is dead ended at the mast collar, it goes up and thru the cringle and back down, (a figure 8 knot on the downside prevents it from loss).
You just pull the line, (you already have a 2>1 purchase built in,) till the cringle is where you want and cleat the line.
No muss, no fuss, no hardware except a cleat on the mast.
The 2nd reef is the same, and it can be rigged so that both, (or 3,) reefs are all on one line.
Copied it from Lin & Larry Pardy.

[Galumay]

In 50 years of sailing I have never heard of rams horns on the gooseneck catching a loose fold in the sail. Maybe its happened, but I doubt its at all common given that many yachts are still built to this day with the same setup on them.

I now understand how you & Jedi have the rope set up, and I am sure it works. I cant see the point in changing though, using a snap shackle on the cringles is just as easy.

The thread is getting somewhat dragged off topic, my question was how should the hardware on my mast be used for reefing, not what is people's preference for reefing hardware!

[ChrisJHC]

Originally Posted by nuku34

Some think they can just un-reeve the 2nd reef line and use that for the 3rd, but when its blowing 30+ that's not an easy task!

A better approach is to un-reeve the 1st reefing line and use that for the 3rd reef. That way you can alternate between the 2nd and 3rd reefs as needed.
And ideally you’d do this before you need it!

I agree that it’s not optimal, but it’s probably better than running three permanently rigged reefing lines.

Skip Novak is pretty keen on this approach:

https://www.yachtingworld.com/video/...torm-sails-517

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by ChrisJHC

A better approach is to un-reeve the 1st reefing line and use that for the 3rd reef. That way you can alternate between the 2nd and 3rd reefs as needed.
And ideally you’d do this before you need it!

I agree that it’s not optimal, but it’s probably better than running three permanently rigged reefing lines.

Skip Novak is pretty keen on this approach:

https://www.yachtingworld.com/video/...torm-sails-517

I thought the video showed the third (fourth) reef line already reeved without any explanation how to do it, nor did I notice it mentioned in the text.

We tried leaving a permanent mouse line between the second and third reefs and to use this the reeve the third reef but we found it difficult in stormy third reef conditions.

Now we simply reeve the 2nd and 3rd reef line while bending on the main or while hoisting it, and choose between full main or either of those two. We find that skipping over the first reef does not prevent us from sailing with enough power in first reef conditions and it makes setting the third reef very simple.

[MicHughV]

oh wow, I stand corrected on the 3rd reef addition....

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Galumay

In 50 years of sailing I have never heard of rams horns on the gooseneck catching a loose fold in the sail. Maybe its happened, but I doubt its at all common given that many yachts are still built to this day with the same setup on them.

I now understand how you & Jedi have the rope set up, and I am sure it works. I cant see the point in changing though, using a snap shackle on the cringles is just as easy.

The thread is getting somewhat dragged off topic, my question was how should the hardware on my mast be used for reefing, not what is people's preference for reefing hardware!

You can do whatever you want but don’t say your setup is just as good and easy because it isn’t. Check boats around you and tell us what percentage has your system?

Stainless snap-shackles are much harder to work than putting a line on a winch or cleat and taking it off. The line always comes off while a snap shackle can refuse to open or close and many people have broken fingers or had other accidents around snap shackles, especially in heavy weather conditions with flapping sails etc.

You have 50 years sailing experience which is great, but so do I and I’ve lived full time aboard Jedi for 20 years. Removed the reefing hooks because they were catching the sail sometimes. But those hooks and dogbones at reefing points still worked much better than your current setup.

On rigging types: I have a catamaran rig. Especially cats have adopted the simplicity of rope/line replacing stainless hardware en masse, fueled by the new materials enabling this for modern designs.

Last but not least: a Cunningham is not a complicated piece of hardware nor is it obsolete or irrelevant. It is a 6’ piece of line that simply puts every other method to shame even those that cost 1000x as much. Every good trimmed mainsail has one.

This is a discussion forum, not a helpdesk. You don’t like what I say, I get that, but it’s how discussion fora work and I honestly try to help you and show you a better and safer way that cost you nothing.

[fxykty]

What’s the problem with running all three reefs with their lines? For coastal sailing perhaps not, but for passages all three reefs will likely be needed. We rigged our three reefs with uncovered Dyneema (actually Acera Amundsen bought from Greenline Fishing in Denmark https://greenlinefishinggear.com/) to save weight, windage and wear on the sail (8mm Acera Amundsen in place of 14mm double braid polyester).

Why would you skip the first reef? It seems to me that those who advocate for skipping that reef must have it designed too shallow, perhaps a performance reef for racing rather than a true reef for cruising? If we were to second reef at the point where we no longer want to carry a full mainsail we would be very underpowered if the wind didn’t come up at least another ten knots. That rarely happens outside of weather fronts and squalls. That’s a different situation from regular day to day sailing.

We use 400mm Acera Amundsen strops with Wichard safety snap hooks https://marine.wichard.com/en/stainl...ety-snap-hooks on the end. These strops are girth hitched to padeyes on either side and below the gooseneck. When snapped onto a reef tack ring and pulled tight by the halyard each reef’s tack ring sits just above and slightly to one side or the other of the mainsail tack fitting on top of the boom. No additional hardware is required at each tack point, only a pressed ring. First and third on one side of the mast, second on the other.

Sorry, mast is off the boat so no pictures possible right now.

[thinwater]

I've only used a 3rd reef a few times, and it was a very nice thing to have. The boat simply handles better with a little main and a tiny jib than with jib-only or bare poles. Assuming you are going to motor limits your options and is a rougher ride. Jib-only can be a bear to get the jib down with nothing to blanket it. A nicely balanced sail plan can make a moderate storm into an adventure instead of a fear fest or unmerciful pounding.



I don't understand the common aversion to having a 3rd reef available. You'll try to avoid the need, but if you sail for enough years, someday the weather man will be wrong.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by fxykty

What’s the problem with running all three reefs with their lines?

In our case there are only two sheaves at the end of the boom, and two sheaves/locks at the gooseneck, and two turning blocks at the deck. secondly, all of these reef lines you have to deal with when hoisting or dropping main. It's not worth the trouble to overcome all of that, for us.

Why would you skip the first reef?

For us the ability to quickly get to the third reef is the highest priority since that will happen in severe conditions

It seems to me that those who advocate for skipping that reef must have it designed too shallow, perhaps a performance reef for racing rather than a true reef for cruising? If we were to second reef at the point where we no longer want to carry a full mainsail we would be very underpowered if the wind didn’t come up at least another ten knots. That rarely happens outside of weather fronts and squalls. That’s a different situation from regular day to day sailing.

In our case we almost always use a full main and a small jib while cruising. Since we only have two selections other than full main, and the boat sails well in 20kts true wind with 2nd reef and small jib, (and considering the priority point made above) the choice was obvious for us.

When racing we have never (to my knowledge) reefed but the racing mainsail has one reef point only. With a full crew and going for speed we can sail in 25-30 true wind with a full (depowered) main and a blade jib. If it is more than that or a long leg we might rig the reefing line or, in a beer can race, withdraw. (Oh, but then we'd miss out on the fun spinnaker runs, so I guess we'd rig the reefing line or just hang in there with a big bubble in the main LOL.

[nofacey]

3rd reef yes, used it, yes - kinda hard to work your way to weather on just a jib….. Does depend on boat & where you sail.
Useless if not rigged - very difficult to do that in 40kt, which is about when you’ll need it.

I used rings on pennants and a clew hook - simple, worked well, didn’t worry about it being a little off center.
- also had stack pack, no issue with reefed sail

[s/v Jedi]

An important note: for ketches a third reef is heavenly. As the mainsail is small already because of the ketch rigged setup, with a third reef you can manage everything.

The trick is that you are balanced because of the mast position further forward than a sloop. It is amazing how much wind you can handle with just the main.

For downwind sailing in 30-35kts we use just the full main. With two reefs we can tack upwind with just the main in these conditions.

Fortunately I never had to put in the third reef in real condition that warrant it.

[Icarus]

Originally Posted by Galumay

Ok, well I have no concern with snap shackles for reef points, I struggle to imagine circumstances which could lead to an injury with a snap shackle that is shackled to the mast on a D fitting - unless I head butted the mast!

I dont have anything as complicated as a cunningham on my rig, and see no reason to have such hardware.

My question originally was understanding how the existing setup is intended to be used, and that has been pretty clearly answered. It seems the simplest and most efficient setup as is, I now have 2 snap shackles at different heights to accomodate the first & second reefs. Just a matter of dropping halyard to clip in relevant reef and then re-tighten halyard.

I guess your posts show there are many different ways to achieve similar outcomes in sails and rigging, also possibly the differences between typical setups on cats versus monos? Thanks for your input, and your clarification to help me understand what you meant!

Pretty much...it come s down to what works for you...

[AKA-None]

I use double line reefing where the reefing lines act much like a Cunningham so I really don’t usually just drop the main. I reef it down
I usually only drop the main when I run out of reef’s

YMMV

[sailingharry]

So a bunch of random responses to various points in this

First, to the op. You got a solid answer to your question. But as always happens in these discussions, every point leads to three more. Read them all and learn. But you did get your answer - the answer is good and your system is reasonable.

Our boat has three reefs. They are all rigged, and we do use the third reef.

It also came with a storm trysail. There is a member on this forum who saw that sail raised, back when the boat was named Kinship. He reports that the storm trysail and the third reef are the same size! We don't carry that sail.

Our third reef uses bare dyneema, as a poster mentioned previously. Greatly reduces the amount of mess up there.

One significant downside to leaving the third reef rigged is I am afraid to drop the sail with the engine in gear. I don't know if that line is long enough to reach the prop, so I do not put it in gear until I have cleared the deck.

Our boat has a Solent rig, and so our small jib, a 95%, is super easy to deploy. Often in heavy air, we will use just the jib. We will make six to seven knots up wind in 25 to 30 knot winds. But with wind behind the beam, the sail gets impossible to trim properly, and the 3rd reef main is much better

We also have a stack pack with lazy jacks. A system I absolutely hate, but still think it is better than anything else. This system does eliminate the hanging down mess with reefs in place. My last boat, a Sabre 34, had just lazy jacks without the stack pack, and I would retract them except when actually dropping the sail. On that boat, I would set the lazy jacks before reefing.

Like I said, random thoughts.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

…
Our third reef uses bare dyneema, as a poster mentioned previously. Greatly reduces the amount of mess up there.

One significant downside to leaving the third reef rigged is I am afraid to drop the sail with the engine in gear. I don't know if that line is long enough to reach the prop, so I do not put it in gear until I have cleared the deck.

...

Bare Dyneema floats so there’s no need to worry about it sinking into your prop. But it is good practice to not put an engine in gear while there is any line over the edge of the deck.