Critique my running backstays thoughts.

[Matt Johnson]

Do you really need to pull the lazy runner back towards the mast with dyneema? It's not like the old abrading and bashing wire runners of the past.

On a tack, I just flip the leeward runner off the winch when the boom comes over and the friction in the 2:1 holds the lazy runner against the main and from flopping around (I occasionally need to tighten the 2:1 a bit). The dyneema is so slippery that I've seen zero chafe along the main where it sits. The only time I pull the runner forward is when I'm putting the sail cover on.

Matt

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by GILow

Ok. Straight to the winch is certainly a practical option.

But...

How to make it look all butch and nautical?

To my eye, butch and nautical is achieved when you arrive with the rig intact. How that's done is between the skipper and Neptune. The views of others, not so much.

[Hesti]

Originally Posted by funjohnson

Do you really need to pull the lazy runner back towards the mast with dyneema? It's not like the old abrading and bashing wire runners of the past.

Matt

Can't comment on dyneema, we had galvanized steel. The reason for shockcording was the olde abrading and bashing you mention ...

[El Pinguino]

What I have.... having replaced wire with some rope stuff some years ago.
I only use runners when running ... very rarely otherwise so never a drama re tacking and all that fancy stuff... pretty much set and forget apart from the occasional gybe and then if I have a storm jib set odds are I have 3 reefs down.....

So... when hanging straight down from the upper spreader region the ends are about a foot off the side deck and -when I'm done - clear of the spreaders ie a bit aft of the mast in the region of the lower chainplates.

Attached to the eyes in the ends of the runners are lengths of 5mm stuff which are used to tension the runners when not in use. These are taken through small turning blocks and back to cleats on the cockpit coamings and made fast.


Also attached to the eyes in the ends of the runners are the runner tails ( single part ) which are led aft through turning blocks in the quarters. These turning blocks are on rope lizards which are turned up on the quarter cleats which are quite substantial.

The ends of these tails and the ends of the 5mm stuff are tied together.

To deploy a runner... let go 5mm stuff from cleat.... put tail on winch and tension.
To un-deploy runner.... let go tail from winch... heave away on 5mm stuff.

Job done.

I am blessed with 8 cockpit winches.......

[artisanmach]

Would you be interested in selling the retired highfield's?

[keithw88]

On my old (1976) Moody ketch, I have re-jigged my runners pretty much as GILow is planning.I now have Dyneema running backstays on the main with braided rope tails, and a Dyneema backstay for the mizzenmast, ended in a low-friction ring with Dyneema threaded through to make two legs down to the arms of my davits. I decided to lead these through clutches to (electric) winches - but doing so does called for care; it would be all too easy to wind on enough pressure to invert a mast. My rigger cautioned me on this, and acquiesced rather reluctantly, saying that I had enough experience to make this acceptable, but was very concerned about other users (eg, my gung-ho sons, perhaps).
I may well splice in rings to prevent such over-tightening, and then have braided rope to go through the clutches, as I am concerned about both creep and crush-damage where Dyneema goes through clutches.
I also have Dyneema lines for my lazy-jacks and nowhere where any of these Dyneema lines can rub against a sail have I seen anything more than slight marking or wear on my sails over several thousand miles in the Med. in two seasons - though I do try to lead all these away from the sails when not needed.
So I am with the majority in this thread; Dyneema is definitely the way to go, but needs to be set up a bit differently from wire.
The next step, though, is more daunting; when will oldies like me accept aramids for the fixed rigging? I’m not there yet!—

[GILow]

Originally Posted by artisanmach

Would you be interested in selling the retired highfield's?

Yes, but the postage to your location would cost more than they are worth. [emoji853]

[GILow]

Originally Posted by Hesti

.. here is a sketch of a lever with hook. On our boat, the hook was bent from rod and welded to the bushing that goes over the pin on the lever. If the backstay ends in an eye, you can hook and unhook the eye of the backstay.

Good to see MSPaint in use.

So... are those levers mounted to the deck?

[GILow]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

What I have....

Thanks EP. Very, very elegant, particularly the continuous loop aspect.

Certainly could do the same on my boat very easily.

It’s like a super pared down version of what I was planning. I only have four winches but the aft pair, for the staysail, are well suited to the task.

I feel like there needs to be just a little elasticity in the system for a 1:1 winch approach to work. Thoughts on this?

[GILow]

Originally Posted by S/V Alchemy

To my eye, butch and nautical is achieved when you arrive with the rig intact. How that's done is between the skipper and Neptune. The views of others, not so much.

True, but like most Aussies, I was being ironic.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by funjohnson

Do you really need to pull the lazy runner back towards the mast with dyneema? It's not like the old abrading and bashing wire runners of the past.

On a tack, I just flip the leeward runner off the winch when the boom comes over and the friction in the 2:1 holds the lazy runner against the main and from flopping around (I occasionally need to tighten the 2:1 a bit). The dyneema is so slippery that I've seen zero chafe along the main where it sits. The only time I pull the runner forward is when I'm putting the sail cover on.

Matt

I heard similar thoughts from one of the boats at the marina.

No, with dyneema I’m not worried about sail chafe but I do like all rigging to be squared away and tight when under way. The guy at the marina admitted that in some conditions the lazy runner would slap lightly against the sail. That would drive me potty. [emoji846]

[GILow]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

...
Also attached to the eyes in the ends of the runners are the runner tails...

What thickness did you choose for the runner tails? I ask because this might answer my elasticity concerns.

[El Pinguino]

The runners themselves are some fancy NZ rope... bought in Argentina 8 years ago to replace the wire.... 10mm diam.

The tails are just bog standard boat rope .. same same jib sheets etc... also 10mm.

Not as if they get extreme loading.. with me at least.

Photo of them in 'harbour stow' 5 minutes ago... small turning block for the 5mm string can be seen by the end of the spin pole.....

Did I mention that it had been raining?

[Jim Cate]

Matt, why do you want elasticity (and what does that mean to you) in your runners? I've gone to some expense to avoid any stretch in that system, ie dyneema stays and spectra cored double braid in the three part tails. And BTW, I run the tails to the secondary cockpit winches via Lewmar clutches, thus freeing the winches for other uses.

Being a fractional rig, our runners are in use most of the time. With swept back spreaders the mast will stand well without the runners, but keeping decent tension in the forestays requires the runner to be set. I've cut the main so that it clears the runner with the first reef in... then I leave both set full time. Works for me!

Jim

[GILow]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Matt, why do you want elasticity (and what does that mean to you)...

Hmmm, yes, I probably don’t want elasticity as such. I just find it a bit of a pain with current setup as the absolutely tiny movement in the line on the 4:1 blocks when tensioning means that even the simple line movement from the cam cleats engaging is enough to leave the whole setup loose. I feel like a sort of limited elasticity in the system would deal with that.

But before I panic I’ll try the EP solution.

As for my runners, they foul the boom so reefing does not help. But I do like them on whenever I use the staysail (any time I am sailing) as they really help with its shape and my ability to point to windward.