Critique my running backstays thoughts.

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by GILow

I heard similar thoughts from one of the boats at the marina.

No, with dyneema I’m not worried about sail chafe but I do like all rigging to be squared away and tight when under way. The guy at the marina admitted that in some conditions the lazy runner would slap lightly against the sail. That would drive me potty. [emoji846]

If I was doing it I'd look at the racing boats way of running the bungy cord up near the spreaders around the mast. Biggest issue with no tricing line is the remote possibility of a runner catching behind a spreader and all sorts of nastiness happening on a dark night when a half asleep crew starts cranking. The bungy up the mast solves a fair few issues and is less likely to pop out someone's eye when it snaps.

Tricing lines are one of those annoying things that are simultaneously both very annoying and incredibly useful (Schrödinger ropes?). On deck they tend to foul and trip you and get in the way on the windward side. And some numpty will forget to undo one and crank it till it breaks something. Maybe make them removable and try options. Good thing is its easy to experiment with running rigging.

Prehaps set up the tackles a meter or two aft of the mast so you can set them up as semi fixed aft lead intermediates for light airs or short tacking

[gjordan]

Jim Cate, could you give a diagram of how your runners are set? I am thinking that they must be far aft if they clear the main when reefed (I really like that idea) but I may be thinking wrong. Snow Petral, the shock cord near the spreaders sounds like a very good idea. I was going to mount the large ABI padeyes that I bought, before I launch, but now I may wait until I can test the geometry of the runners. When snugged down, not having to reset runners would be nice. ____Grant.

[Jim Cate]

As for my runners, they foul the boom

OOhhh, I dinna like that, Matt. Any possibility of moving the attachment point aft far enough to clear the boom? Your setup raises the potential cost of a big accidental gybe rather dramatically. Worth thinking about,since this would be a good time to make the change with new stays, etc being already in the picture.

Jim

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

OOhhh, I dinna like that, Matt. Any possibility of moving the attachment point aft far enough to clear the boom? Your setup raises the potential cost of a big accidental gybe rather dramatically. Worth thinking about,since this would be a good time to make the change with new stays, etc being already in the picture.

Jim

Interesting Jim, I've always liked the runners inside the boom as it reduces the load on the leech, and saves having to flick the runner outside the boom, though the bungy cord to the spreaders helps a fair bit, and I guess spectra makes chafe on the leech less of an issue than it was with the old wire runners.

But being able to sail with a reefed main clearing inside runners is real handy. In the past I have run them to a spot further aft when deep reefed so they clear the boom.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by gjordan

Jim Cate, could you give a diagram of how your runners are set? I am thinking that they must be far aft if they clear the main when reefed (I really like that idea) but I may be thinking wrong. Snow Petral, the shock cord near the spreaders sounds like a very good idea. I was going to mount the large ABI padeyes that I bought, before I launch, but now I may wait until I can test the geometry of the runners. When snugged down, not having to reset runners would be nice. ____Grant.

G'Day Grant,

No diagram available, but it is pretty simple:

Dyneema runners originate at the same height as our forestay and solent stay attachment point (fractional solent rig with swept back spreaders).

Bungy cord looped around mast ~2 m below attachment point and tied to runners. Serves to pull the lazy runner forward when only one is tensioned.

Three part tackle with spectra core 10 mm line tails, leading to chain plates bolted to the transom, near the outboard corners. Tail of tackle lead forward through Lewmar clutches, normally to the secondary winches but sometimes to a primary (if the secondary is in use, and we use them for the two furling lines). Once tensioned, we let the clutch take the load and free up the winch. On the advice of the designer (Jon Sayer) we load them up pretty hard (three part tackle and some grunt in low gear on a Barient 27). Really helps with keeping the luff straight on the foresails. The clutches will release under this load (kinda surprisingly) and don't bugger the cover on the line much.. years of service from them.

When short tacking with the full main we simply blow the clutch and tack, winding in on the new runner. Only as much slack in the lazy runner as the sail requires, and no chafe noted. On longer tacks we will run the lazy runner forward and secure it. Would like tricing lines, but already have way too much rope clutter and hate to add to it... maybe someday!

This system has worked for all the 60,000 miles we've done in the boat... although originally the runners were spectra cored double braid and t he tails regular dacron. Too much stretch, and then I discovered Dyneema!

Jim

[GILow]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

OOhhh, I dinna like that, Matt. Any possibility of moving the attachment point aft far enough to clear the boom? Your setup raises the potential cost of a big accidental gybe rather dramatically. Worth thinking about,since this would be a good time to make the change with new stays, etc being already in the picture.



Jim

Not possible. It’s an old fashioned, low aspect ratio rig with a great big long boom. And by the time you clear the boom you run into the problem of the pinched canoe stern.

Also, the chain plates for the running backstays are classed into the hull using a kind of inverted “T” system, so very substantial, and hard to replicate.

I’ll just have to sail carefully. In practice, if I am running deep enough to risk a gybe I could leave out the runners as the shape of the staysail will hardly matter.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

...And some numpty will forget to undo one and crank it till it breaks something.

Only one numpty on board, so I’ll know who to blame.

I hear you about the bungee cords but I have to admit I don’t like the way they age in the sun.

I’ll try EP’s setup first, it’s by far the simplest to implement on my boat, and take it from there. On the upside, I have very clear, spacious and uncluttered decks so I think I can bring the tricing loop aft without making a jumble.

[Snowpetrel]

^^ Yes Pings system is an ideal start point. Thats the way I'd go for starters, simple, cheap, and effective.

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by GILow

Only one numpty on board, so I’ll know who to blame.

Ha, the only thing more annoying than that numpty is when you do it yourself and have no one to blame..

[GILow]

Well... some days you just have to accept that you have the opposite of the Midas Touch.

After failing at every other boat job today, I decided to treat myself to mocking up EP’s system.

It looked really good until I realised what was going to happen to the jib sheets.

Going back to the house to sulk now. Need a fresh approach in the morning.

[Snowpetrel]

Don't you hate that, can you elaborate?

[Benz]

Originally Posted by GILow

Only one numpty on board, so I’ll know who to blame.

I hear you about the bungee cords but I have to admit I don’t like the way they age in the sun.

I’ll try EP’s setup first, it’s by far the simplest to implement on my boat, and take it from there. On the upside, I have very clear, spacious and uncluttered decks so I think I can bring the tricing loop aft without making a jumble.

About bungee cords: there are now Dyneema covered bungee cords available, which last a lot longer in the sun and don't abrade so quickly as the old-fashioned ones. I get mine from Ronstan, which I believe can be found in OZ.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by GILow

Well... some days you just have to accept that you have the opposite of the Midas Touch.

After failing at every other boat job today, I decided to treat myself to mocking up EP’s system.

It looked really good until I realised what was going to happen to the jib sheets.

Going back to the house to sulk now. Need a fresh approach in the morning.

Ah... did I fail to mention the jib sheets.... sorry 'bout that...

Not a real issue ( for me at least ) ... the bend that joins tail to 5mm stuff is never loaded... un-tie/re-tie as required... easy enough to sort out when going from stowed to deployed... you are in the middle of the ocean not racing on Port Jackson....

[luckylady22ft]

Just in case you might need lines and blocks, please see this link to Craig's List ad:
Running Back Stays Complete with Shaefer Stainless Fiddle Hardware (4) and (2) 50 Ft lines
treasure.craigslist.org/bpo/d/running-back-stays-for-47-ft/6726007711.html

We had them on our cutter rigged Beneteau 473 sloop. Worked great.

[El Pinguino]

I'm currently tied up next to "Antipode" , Christophe Augine's boat.

Sketch attached of his set-up...

Upper ( for inner forestay ) and lower ( for babystay ) runners...

Set up as per the sketch.... no sign of any bungee or 5mm string etc ...

Both deck blocks are within a foot of each other and within 2 feet of the transom..

I have reason to believe Christophe knows more than a little bit about sailing....

From Wiki

'Christophe Auguin, (born 10 December 1959 in Granville, Manche), is a French yachtsman. He is the only one sailor to have won three single-handled sailing races around the globe: the BOC Challenge twice (1990-1991 and 1994-1995) and the Vendée Globe (1996-1997).[1]

He also won the Solitaire du Figaro in 1986.[2]'