Cross-Cut vs Tri-Radial?

[Kestrahl]

Dockhead is correct in that Hydra-net does stretch more than commonly thought and the tri-radial laminates he is stating have far superior shape retention. However when you think about cruising or offshore cruising in particular, 95% or greater of the sailing you are doing is not hard on the wind. Most cruising boats are not great performers to windward anyway. So for that 95% it doesn't matter and in fact a slightly deeper rounded shape is faster tight reaching to running. Add to this being in a seaway where the sails are slamming around, a woven sail will place a lot less stress on the rigging.

[Jim Cate]

So, DH, you have had all sorts of advice, opinions and "facts" to add to the soup. Your stated drop dead date has passed, and we're all waiting to hear what you decided... or at least I am! Seriously interested... and awaiting both the news and eventually a pic or two of whatever you end up with. It will sure be exciting the first time you sheet in the new sails and head upwind in 20 kts!

Cheers,

Jim

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

So, DH, you have had all sorts of advice, opinions and "facts" to add to the soup. Your stated drop dead date has passed, and we're all waiting to hear what you decided... or at least I am! Seriously interested... and awaiting both the news and eventually a pic or two of whatever you end up with. It will sure be exciting the first time you sheet in the new sails and head upwind in 20 kts!

Cheers,

Jim

Thanks!

I actually signed the order for the Bainbridge carbon/technora laminate, and then was immediately offered the DP DYS as an alternative at the same price. I have to decide by Monday morning.

The Bainbridge supposedly tougher, but since the carbon can't be cut with a laser, the threads hang out and you can't completely seal the edges. Someone said that you can have water penetration problems. The sailmaker says no -- carbon doesn't wick water.

The DP DYS is the premium cruising laminate from DP, standard issue on the bigger Oysters. It's a Dyneema matrix with a layer of mylar film on either side, with taffeta over that.

Both variants tri-radial.

I'll be grateful for any opinions.

[Jim Cate]

Well, beyond agreeing that tri-radial construction is the only realistic choice, I sure can't be of help with your decision, DH. No experience with either material, and they both sound very good indeed.

It used to be so simple: you went to the sailmaker and said "I need a new jib (or whatever)". The only question you had to answer was "how much overlap 'ya want?"
And a week or two later you got a new sail which might or might not fit right or have the best shape. And now? You obviously need at least one consultant for cloth, one for shape, one for panel layout and one to deal with the bank loan. Sheesh!

Good luck, mate!

Jim

[Robin3]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Thanks!

I actually signed the order for the Bainbridge carbon/technora laminate, and then was immediately offered the DP DYS as an alternative at the same price. I have to decide by Monday morning.

The Bainbridge supposedly tougher, but since the carbon can't be cut with a laser, the threads hang out and you can't completely seal the edges. Someone said that you can have water penetration problems. The sailmaker says no -- carbon doesn't wick water.

The DP DYS is the premium cruising laminate from DP, standard issue on the bigger Oysters. It's a Dyneema matrix with a layer of mylar film on either side, with taffeta over that.

Both variants tri-radial.

I'll be grateful for any opinions.

I suspect none of us, me for sure, are truly qualified to comment, however wicking is something that occurs when there is a pathway open for moisture to follow to so I would personally be a little suspicious of any statement that it never happens because the carbon fibre itself doesn't do it. We have to decide whether to trust the relevant experts, in this case the sail makers or cloth makers. It is only (your) money anyway, hopefully not life and death! It was never this difficult with good old canvas sails

[poiu]

The cut: cross cut or radial construction should be determined by the cloth. Radial cut came about to deal with a woven cloth's stretch on the bias (also, perpendicularly oriented fibres like the DYS), which causes cross cut sails to bag. With the fibres oriented appropriately a cross cut is appropriate. I have a cross cut string sail.

So pick the cloth and the cut should follow. I think the Flex has lots of diagonal threads, so can be cross cut. I guess your question could equally be which of your short list laminates to get. Dunno to that one, just I don't like Dacron in sails. All the modern innovations in sail making are addressing its failings.

The wicking issue applies to all laminated to a greater or lesser degree and I suspect there may be a little truth in it, but I was advised if the right process is used the joins are watertight and extremely strong.

[krafthaus]

For a 42' catamaran with these two sail options should I expect much better sailing performance from Option 2?

1. Standard crosscut sails from Dacron.
2. Tri-radial genoa & main from warp drive Dacron.

Both options from Doyle. Both main sails with battens.

I know the tri-radials will be a higher price but would be willing to pay for performance. Looking at 6 months cruising each winter. Would sail life be appreciably different?

I have no experience on this decision team, so any input appreciated.




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[Kestrahl]

Originally Posted by krafthaus

For a 42' catamaran with these two sail options should I expect much better sailing performance from Option 2?

1. Standard crosscut sails from Dacron.
2. Tri-radial genoa & main from warp drive Dacron.

Both options from Doyle. Both main sails with battens.

I know the tri-radials will be a higher price but would be willing to pay for performance. Looking at 6 months cruising each winter. Would sail life be appreciably different?

I have no experience on this decision team, so any input appreciated.

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If both sails are built correctly the simple answer is no, you won't notice any difference on a 42ft Lagoon.

However Cross-cut you have to be careful that the dacron used is up to the job on a big multi otherwise it can really go bad over time. The equivalent quality cross-cut dacron to warp drive from Challenge is called Marblehead and it costs the same per yard. It either has to be heavy enough to take the leech loading or made with a 2ply leech. With the radial cut you can make the luff panels in a lighter weight while the leech/head/clew can be heavy so overall a radial sail is going to be lighter.

[krafthaus]

Should I expect the tri-radial sails to maintain their shape and performance longer than the crosscut? Both will eventually stretch I suppose but less of an issue due to the design of the tri-radial? And less stretch with warp drive than standard spec Dacron is what I understand. So Option 2 should be better for those reasons.

I don't have the pricing yet for the 2 options so will see what the extra cost is later this week.


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[Kestrahl]

Originally Posted by krafthaus

Should I expect the tri-radial sails to maintain their shape and performance longer than the crosscut? Both will eventually stretch I suppose but less of an issue due to the design of the tri-radial? And less stretch with warp drive than standard spec Dacron is what I understand. So Option 2 should be better for those reasons.

I don't have the pricing yet for the 2 options so will see what the extra cost is later this week.


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Radial cutting is normally used in laminated fabric that is a lot more stable. It doesn't work as well with dacron so there is so big a difference and most racing classes with dacron use cross cut layout as it allows more options for shape adjustment. The darcon Warp Drive is no different in stretch than any other dacron and actually in the challenge catalogue it doesn't mention the super tenacity fiber 104 that it does for marblehead. A little bit of stretch doesn't make any difference to performance reaching or running, only to windward. But you don't want "a lot" of stretch which can happen with the cheap dacron's so it is best to use a quality dacron (crosscut or radial) of the appropriate weight on a big multihull.

[krafthaus]

Thanks Kestrahl, appreciate your comments.


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[Captn morgan]

I agree with CarlF. A miter cut jib is the way to go. I've had one (Mack Sails) for about 4 years now and it still looks and performs like new.

Captn Morgan
S/V Chase The Clouds