Cutter sail names

[JebLostInSpace]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

The idea is that you can either have 2 sails on furlers, or 1 on a furler and 1 hank on, allowing you to change headsails without having to remove the one you'd normally keep on a furler. Some solent stays are designed to be moved out of the way when not in use, avoiding the need to furl the forward headsail to tack. With a solent rig, you only use one headsail at a time. The cutter can use both together.

Aha! Big lightbulb moment for me, thank you! The solent is there so you can switch to another jib without taking down your roller-furler on the forestay! That sounds super useful. Now I wish I had one, as I don't have any decent options for a storm-jib or anything like it. All I can do is roll out a scrap of my Genoa, which is a crappy answer in heavy weather, so I try very hard to avoid anything over 25-30kts. A solent would let me rig a little storm jib and be much happier.

Did anyone use solent stays before the rise of roller-furlers? Or are they a recent invention to get around the downside of a difficult-to-take-down furler system?

[Dsanduril]

I miss our cutter rig. For the headsail a Yankee tends to work very well in concert with the staysail, you get lots of sail area but broken up into smaller units. A Genoa may or may not play well with a staysail, depends on the rig. We frequently used a big Genoa in light winds, then a staysail and Yankee in moderate breeze, and when we got down to "fighting sails" (see below) it was double-reefed main and staysail. So much flexibility in sail configuration.

Since we're talking sail terms, in the good old day "fighting sails" were the sails you carried into a cannon fight. Since most of your crew were busy manning the guns you had a reduced complement of sailors to handle the sails. So you reduced sail to the most easily handled rig that still provided maneuverability. For us a double-reefed main and staysail represent that spirit. Heading to weather in 25 knots they are easily handled, bring the center-of-effort down and toward the center, and just make everything more comfortable.

[Montanan]

Snipet from reference source: https://info.upffront.com/blog/bluew...-solent-part-2

So, how does a solent rig compare to a cutter rig?

Unlike the cutter rig, it is not intended for both headsails on a solent rig to be flown at the same time. That said, it is possible to use twin headsails (which help to steady the boat) to sail dead-downwind, with one sail poled out to starboard and the other to port. This is one of the major advantages of the solent rig. However, the downside of poled out twin headsails is that quick, emergency, changes of direction are problematic.

The solent rig does provide great scope for flexible headsail choices. You may have 2-3 sails in your existing wardrobe which could be recut by your sailmaker to give you more upwind / reaching flexibility across a range of wind conditions. You could explore different combinations of larger 150% genoas and smaller 100% jibs and, once setup, you have lots of options available to you, without the need for ever going onto the foredeck

However, despite its simplicity and ease of use, the solent rig is not as performance orientated as the cutter rig: when sailing close to the wind, the furled sail can interrupt the airflow over the sail that is being flown, reducing efficiency.


Without additional aft support, the forestay tension is shared between the two forestays, meaning the luff of both sails can fall away excessively upwind. In addition, there is no need for any additional backstays as the in-line stays are attached close to the masthead, which makes the solent rig a budget friendly option.


The solent rig is thus – in theory – an easier retrofit: it requires just a solent stay attachment below the existing forestay, and a new halyard sheave. It is also common to use a 3:1 purchase system under the drum of the solent stay and make it a semi-removable system, to facilitate easier tacking of the main genoa, in light, upwind conditions.


Overall, the solent rig would be a great option for someone who believes ‘less is more’. With two well-made headsails, in theory the rig should allow a sailor to go anywhere without ever venturing onto the foredeck… so, for short-handed, globe-trotting on a budget - and with plenty of time available - this could be an excellent option!

[samwhit]

A solent is also a great way to fly (nearly) twin headsails going downwind.

[tradrockrat]

I'm currently calling my inner jib / staysail a M@#$#%%F!@##$%^&&@##$!!!!!!!!

But that's a personal issue...lol

[Smokeys Kitchen]

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

.... For the headsail a Yankee tends to work very well in concert with the staysail, you get lots of sail area but broken up into smaller units. A Genoa may or may not play well with a staysail, depends on the rig. ....... then a staysail and Yankee in moderate breeze, and when we got down to "fighting sails" (see below) it was double-reefed main and staysail. So much flexibility in sail configuration.

The combination that Dsannduril talks about above describes us very well. We have a Pacific Seacraft (read Crealock) 40; a cutter rig. Our foresail (jib) would be considered a 'high clew Yankee' that we use in conjunction with our staysail for most sailing situations. In our case, both foresails are on furlers.

Double reefing the main and running just the staysail works very well in high winds; one of our favorite configurations.

A short note about rigs. A true cutter rig has the mast stepped a little aft to allow more room in the foretriangle for 2 seperate sails. The staysail usually comes off the mast at the upper spreaders and then down to the deck in a manner which keeps the triangles of the jib and staysail in the same set of angles. The solent stays I have seen (never been on one) come off the mast just below the point of the jib as Montanan and others have mentioned and then down below to the deck at a point only a short distance behind the jib tack point. The triangles described by the head stay (where the jib runs) and the solent stay usually do not have the same angles with the solent stay being steeper.

I believe that solent rigs can and do run on sloops as well as cutters. If I did not have a cutter rig, then I would give a lot of consideration to adding a solent stay for flexibility.

[should solent be capitalized? Solent? I know it is an actual location, but I was never very good at that stuff ]

[Montanan]

Just to simplify and clarify the riggings and sail terms to aid the newbies that may comeaboard and wish to assist in handling the sails.

[JebLostInSpace]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Just to simplify and clarify the riggings and sail terms to aid the newbies that may comeaboard and wish to assist in handling the sails.

Wait wait wait. The forestay goes to the top of the foremast. But then the stay going to the top of the foretopmast is labelled the foretopgallant stay? And the stay going to the top of the foretopgallant is labelled the foreroyal stay? And the diagram does not include a foretopstay at all? That's not how it was taught to me when I crewed on the three-masted barque Picton Castle, which is rigged very similarly to this diagram...

I was taught the forestay goes to the top of the foremast. The foretopstay goes to the top of the foretopmast. The foretopgallant stay goes to the top of the foretopgallant mast, etc. That makes a lot of sense and is easy to remember.

But then the names for the sails were a bit less straightforward. On Picton Castle we had the foretopmast staysail, which was bent to the stay going to the top of the foretopmast. This one made perfect sense. Then we had the inner jib and outer jib. These needed their own names since they went on stays also going to the top of the foretopmast, but were attached further out on the bowsprit than the foretopmast stay. But then we had the flying jib, which I always thought should have been called the foretopgallant staysail since it was bent to a stay going to the top of the foretopgallant mast...

Given the earlier discussion in this thread, maybe the outer jib should have been the foretopmast staysail, the inner jib could have been the solent staysail, and the inner jib could have been the baby staysail?

[Montanan]

Daffynitions:

jib1 or jibb (dʒɪb)

n.
1. any of various triangular sails set forward of a forestaysail or fore-topmast staysail.
2. the inner one of two such sails, set inward from a flying jib.
Idioms:
cut of one's jib, one's general appearance.

jib
n
1. (Nautical Terms) nautical any triangular sail set forward of the foremast of a vessel
2. cut of someone's jib someone's manner, behaviour, style, etc
3. obsolete
a. the lower lip, usually when it protrudes forwards in a grimace
b. the face or nose

jib 1 (jĭb)
n.
1. Nautical A triangular headsail set with its luff fastened to a stay rising from the bow, bowsprit, or jib boom.
2.
a. The arm of a mechanical crane.
b. The boom of a derrick.

jib 2 (jĭb)
intr.v. jibbed, jib·bing, jibs
1. To stop short and turn restively from side to side; balk.
2. To perform tricks by jumping onto and maneuvering over fixed obstacles such as railings or platforms. Used especially of snowboarders and skiers.

jib3 (dʒɪb)

v.i. jibbed, jib•bing.
to balk (usu. fol by at).

jib
Past participle: jibbed
Gerund: jibbing

flying jib - the outermost of two or more jibs

[Montanan]

Types of sail

Each form of rig requires its own type of sails. Among them are:

A staysail (pronounced stays'l) is a fore-and-aft sail whose leading edge (or luff) is hanked / attached to a stay.
A headsail is any sail forward of the foremost mast on a sailboat. It is usually a fore-and-aft sail, but on older sailing ships would include a square-sail on a bowsprit.
A jib is a headsail that flies in front of the foremost vertical mast and attaches to a stay or roller furling gear, whether that be the mainmast or a somewhat shorter foremast.
A genoa is a large jib that increases area by extending rearward of the mast.
A spinnaker is a full sail of light material for use when sailing downwind in light airs. When in use, the jib or genoa would be lowered.
A gennaker is a sail that is a cross between a genoa and a spinnaker.
A mainsail ("mains'l") is a sail attached to the main mast. The principal types include:
(1) A square-rig mainsail is a square sail attached at the bottom of the main mast.
(2) A Bermuda-rig mainsail is a triangular sail with the luff attached to the mast with the foot or lower edge generally attached to a boom.
(3) A gaff-rig mainsail is a quadrilateral sail whose head is supported by a gaff.
(4) A spritsail-rig mainsail is a quadrilateral sail whose aft head is supported by a sprit.
A lug sail is an asymmetric quadrilateral sail suspended on a spar and hoisted up the mast as a fore-and-aft sail.
A mizzen sail is a small triangular or quadrilateral sail at the stern of a boat.
A steadying sail is a mizzen sail on motor vessels such as old-fashioned drifters and navy ships (such as HMS Prince Albert). The sail's prime function is to reduce rolling rather than to provide drive.

Masts, spars and sails

A three-masted vessel has, from front to back, a foremast, mainmast and mizzenmast. A two-masted vessel has a mainmast, the other being a foremast or mizzen. Ships with more than three masts simply number them.

On a square-sailed vessel, the sails of each mast are named by the mast and position on the mast. For instance, on the mainmast (from bottom to top):

main course
main topsail
main topgallant ("t'gallant")
main royal
main skysail
main moonraker. [b]
On many ships, sails above the top (a platform just above the lowest sail) were mounted on separate masts ("topmasts" or "topgallant masts") held in wooden sockets called "trestletrees". These masts and their stays could be rigged or struck as the weather conditions required, or for maintenance and repair.

Or perhaps one could just name the thingamabobbies by a simple clearly labeled numbering scheme. "Hoist the twelve. Ease the fortytwo. Reef the sixty six. No, no, your OTHER sixty six!!!"

[Benz]

In order avoid confusion, I (and others who work on the schooners around here) only refer to the sail at the bowsprit end as the jib. It goes on the jibstay. The Staysail goes on the forestay, which comes down to the stemhead. The staysail is not a jib. It is the staysail. Because it goes on the forestay. There may be a variety of jibs on various other stays out there on the bowsprit, but none of them is the staysail, which only goes in one place.

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Fore triangle distinction. Cutter versus solent rig.
...snip

I beg to disagree. I'd call both as solent rigs. A cutter has always a sprit and the the jib is fore of the staysail never behind. A bit old fashioned view but anyways..

[Smokeys Kitchen]

This thread has been pretty informative for me, but I now know why the Bermuda sloop rig has become so popular!