Does a sloop need an inner forestay?

[Paul L]

What type of use do you plan for the boat? If I was going to long distance cruise the boat then I'd set it up for a staysail. Put a fairly heavy sail on a furler. It will get used offshore more often than the 140%. It is would also be easy to use inshore when short tacking.

[Adelie]

It's not an inner forestay, it's a babystay. It counteracts the pull of the aft lowers. 1 babystay does the job of 2 forward lowers.

In mild winds and moderate seas you could uncouple it at the bottom and put it out of the way. Any more than that and the mast starts to be progressively more at risk.

I would use a length of PVC pipe over it with end caps top and bottom. Both end caps will have to be end drilled big enough to go over the swaged stud at the bottom of the wire. This means the tube will want to ride down over the stadium and may bind instead of spinning freely.

If binding is a problem then find a stainless lock washer with an ID a little bigger than the wire and an OD bigger than the hole in the end cap. If the aren't made in a size that works both ways then get a stainless fender washer and make a radial cut to the center hole to make a poor man's lock washer. Bend one washer side up out of plane to slip it over the wire then back into plane once it's on. You may need file some corners depending on how tight the ID is to the wire.

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by phetploy

That is what I would be afraid of. If it is important, it will control backwards bend of the mast at the point of attachment which is the upper spreader.

A baby stay actually pulls the front of the mast towards the bow. And restricts it ability to invert by preventing the mid mast from moving backwards. On mostboats withthem they aren't really critical, since the mast bow is normally achieved with the shrouds, but it's a massive safety line preventing inversion.

Think of it like a tether. In all my years sailing I can think think of a time when it kept me on the boat. But I would never go to sea without one.


To minimize the tacking problems slide a piece of 1/2" thin walled PVC, or very thin walled aluminium over the shroud. It will act like a bearing and all we the sail to slide over it.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Adelie

It's not an inner forestay, it's a babystay. It counteracts the pull of the aft lowers. 1 babystay does the job of 2 forward lowers.

In mild winds and moderate seas you could uncouple it at the bottom and put it out of the way. Any more than that and the mast starts to be progressively more at risk.

I would use a length of PVC pipe over it with end caps top and bottom. Both end caps will have to be end drilled big enough to go over the swaged stud at the bottom of the wire. This means the tube will want to ride down over the stadium and may bind instead of spinning freely.

If binding is a problem then find a stainless lock washer with an ID a little bigger than the wire and an OD bigger than the hole in the end cap. If the aren't made in a size that works both ways then get a stainless fender washer and make a radial cut to the center hole to make a poor man's lock washer. Bend one washer side up out of plane to slip it over the wire then back into plane once it's on. You may need file some corners depending on how tight the ID is to the wire.

How can it be a babysat? The OP said it connects to the mast at the upper spreaders. A babysat would connect much lower.

[bvisailing32]

Yep, it is a pain to tack, but if it supports the mast, I would say leave it.

However, you can hank on your staysail and raise it, and when you come about, cut the genoa jib sheet, the staysail will aid in easier traveling for the genoa around the staysail stay. Then cut the staysail sheet after sheeting the the genoa for the proper point of sail. Trim both the genoa and the staysail with the same angle. Actually all sails will be trimmed the same.

That stay sail up is not a big deal unless you are short tacking up a narrow channel for a few miles, and then added crew would come in handy.

Also, in strong winds, on a cutter rigged ketch, or sloop with a staysail you have several sail plans to use depending on the conditions.

The crealocks that I used to sail had running back stays, as well as the staysail stay. and the 34 was a cutter rigged yawl. The 37 was a cutter rigged sloop,. Also sailed a Morgan 46 that was a cutter rigged ketch .

Been a long time, but I did sail a staysail riggged vessel that had a pelican hook on the staysail stay tack. and we could release that and lash it to the mast.

Agree with the other posters, think about contacting someone who designed and built the vessels. Maybe also talk with riggers and sail makers who have been around a while .

Lots of good ideas from the posters here as well.

Personally, we would stick with the original design, until there is absolute definite information as to removing the staysail stay.

[Chuck Hawley]

Interesting question. Based on the absence of any staysail gear, I would wonder if the point at which the inner forestay attaches has an opposing set of stays or shrouds that oppose its tension.

I could imagine a set of intermediate shrouds that were located aft of the plane in which the mast is located so that the three wires held the middle of the mast in a fixed location. I could also imagine that you'd have running backstays that would oppose the inner forestay.

One benefit of a baby stay or staysail stay is to keep the mast from inverting, especially in a pounding sea. It forces forward bend in the rig, which is a good thing, and can induce pre-bend so that the mainsail sets flatter.

I'd be interested in what you find out.

Finally, having the option to fly a storm staysail would be a pretty cool thing to have.

Chuck

[topmast]

I mounted a (homemade)hyfield lever on the butt of the bowsprit .The long pendant turned at the other end and received the the middle forestay for the jib. Outer stay to topmast head for genny.Slack the lever,take middle stay back to levers shorter pendant and pull tight .I left the jib hanked and furled under the boomed staysail jib and when too much for genni easy to rerig. Mast was 10 inch solid fir at the hounds so no worry about flexing

[svmariane]

Originally Posted by phetploy

My Celestial 48 has an inner forestay like a cutter.....

Yeah. Mine too.

Maybe you might should read this thread started by Dockhead: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...il-144063.html . He doth wax poetic. ;-)

In there I stated: "Our staysail / trysail combo is one of the main reasons we stayed afloat - and alive - when we were wacked coming out of New Zealand a few years back."

Up to you, but I'd suggest keeping the inner forestay and adapting as needed for halyard, sheets, winches (etc) and add a staysail. Some good ideas already posted above for easing the chaff/tacking problems.

[Captndave1]

I would install a quick release at the base of the inner stay so that you can release it when racing. Reconnect it if you go offshore, and I would install tracks, winches and running backstays so you can sail as a cutter in heavy air. The advantage being that when you reef the main, you can roll up the headsail and sail under staysail and reefed main thereby bringing the boat's center of effort in towards the center of the boat making the boat more stable, hence, the reason for the cutter design.

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by sailpower

Is it a forestay or a baby stay?

You might need the latter.

Exactly...hey, are you related to Wally Ross? Best book I ever read on sails and how (and why) they work.

[roverhi]

The wire appears to be a stay for a staysail that was never properly rigged. If so, removing it will cause no harm and may actually stop the mast from pumping. Without running backstays, there is nothing to counteract its pull on the mast. In short, it serves no purpose as rigged. If it was attached to the mast lower down it could be a baby stay and designer felt it necessary to keep the mast in column. Mounted that high up, it wouldn't be a baby stay.

[Jim Cate]

Question: how many LOWER shrouds are there? If only one, then it is a baby stay, with functions as described above. If there are two, then it is unlikely to be so important structurally, and is intended to set a sail upon. My guess is the latter, for the upper spreader location is typical of an inner forestay, while baby stays are usually near t he vertical center of the mast.

And IMO, having the ability to set a staysail is quite important... worthy of the investment in tracks and other hardware.

Jim

[mickelsen]

Remember your boat was not engineered it is a knockoff of a another knockoff all marketed under various names. So, the inner forestay on a good boat is attached to a lever a proper distance from the stem head. This allows it to be taken back to the mast base when not needed. With a proper rig it will diminish the mast "pumping" in various seas making the main more efficient. I could go on but I hope you get the idea. Seems you have a big boat and a lot to learn.

[michaelratinter]

I have the same setup on the foredeck of my ketch, i.e. an 130% genoa and inner forestay. Before tacking I furl the genoa to a point where she comes across without hanging up then unfurling on the new tack. Since we don't race and sail long tacks this isn't a problem.

I had a storm sail made to hank onto the inner forestay but only set it in light winds because the PO never got around to adding the running backstays (and I haven't either but will do so soon).

With all four sails set on a beam reach she does 3 kts in a 9 kt wind. 17 gross ton ketch.

[zstine]

I have a 1975 Tartan 41 designed with a baby stay. 95% of the time I do not have it connected. It is there to prevent mast pumping and to aid bend in the mast in heavy/wavy conditions. Take it off in moderate conditions and see if the mast bend inverts... if it does, then put it back. But don't just listen to all those ultra conservatives on this forum telling you that your mast will break. If it's not blowin, it won't break. try removing it in 10knts and see what happens. If it connects at the second spreader, I doubt it is a baby, but if the deck mount is closer to the mast than it is to the stem, then it is a baby.. Baby stay is not designed for flying a sail, just mast bend.. i'd be surprised if it's a baby at the 2nd spreader. It is probably an inner cutter stay designed to carry a stay sail, perhase the previous owner never completed the install. A cutter stay should have running backs if it is going to carry a sail... the deck point of mounting will tell you if it is a baby... That and if you have forward and aft lowers. Every baby stay rigged boat I've ever seen has all shrouds in-line with the mast. no forward and aft lowers. Assuming yours are in-line, then this stay may be needed to stabilize the rig in heavy seas to prevent mast pump or inversion. If that's the case, make it removable and just rig on long open passages or in heavy weather.