Does a sloop need an inner forestay?

[phetploy]

My Celestial 48 has an inner forestay like a cutter. It is a pain when tacking or gybing as it prevents the large (140%?) genoa moving easily to the other side of the boat. It also causes a lot of wear on the genoa which has already had to be restitched at the clew. My understanding is that it performs no function in a sloop.
The boat has no staysail and no tracks or winches or self tacking apparatus for one. She is definitely a sloop.
My intention is to first uncouple it and attach it to the foot of the mast. If I can sail like that for a few months and there are no problems, I will remove it entirely.
Just looking for confirmation that this is not a really stupid idea which[/url] will cause my mast to bend in half.

[Stumble]

Your information is wrong. Not every sloop needs an inner forstay but it isn't uncommon either. It just depends on mast bend characteristics and how the rig is designed. They principle control the mid-mast bend point, so getting rid of it can cause all sorts of inversion problems.

Yes you could probably remove it, yes it will probably be ok in light air and flat water. But take her out in lumpy water or a big breeze and you could be dodging a broken mast.

[sailpower]

Is it a forestay or a baby stay?

You might need the latter.

[Scot McPherson]

where does the stay attach to the mast? If it's at the mast head, it's probably redundant, but you may wish to beef up the head stay to make up for the loss of strength. if the stay attaches at the spreaders or anywhere else but the head, then the stay is performing some structural function.


If it's attached at the mast head are you sure you have a sloop? Maybe it's a stay for a hank on staysail.

[Tayana42]

According to Sailboat Data the Celestial 48 is an adaptation ( unauthorized ) of a Ted Brewer design and was built as either a sloop, ketch or cutter. The inner forestay plays a very different role in the different rig types. Consideration needs to be given to the strength of the entire rig with and without the inner forestay. It is probably a good idea to consult a good rigger before contemplating a change.

[gjordan]

Is the yard that built the boat still available for questions? Is the designer still around? Is the mast manufacturer still in business? Those would be the first people to ask. I went looking for data, but did not find much. The for sale adds say Cutter ketch which really means a double headsail Ketch. On a utube video I did see running backs so maybe the mast needs extra support, but runners are usually to counteract the staysail. I owned a Peterson 44 for 8 years and even though it was designed as a cutter, it was sold into the Bareboat Charter fleet so they didnt install the inner. The mast would pump under certain conditions, so I would just snug the windward runner and it would quiet down. I later added a removable inner and had a staysail cut, but I considered it a passage sail and only rarely hooked up the inner. By the way, that is a beautiful boat that you have. _____Grant.

[Cheechako]

If it was put there it was part of the design. Of course you could have it redesigned and not much change may be necessary. For normal sailing you are probably fine without it. However the weather doesn't send memos out if changes are hapenning.

[jrbogie]

Originally Posted by phetploy

My Celestial 48 has an inner forestay like a cutter. It is a pain when tacking or gybing as it prevents the large (140%?) genoa moving easily to the other side of the boat. It also causes a lot of wear on the genoa which has already had to be restitched at the clew. My understanding is that it performs no function in a sloop.
The boat has no staysail and no tracks or winches or self tacking apparatus for one. She is definitely a sloop.
My intention is to first uncouple it and attach it to the foot of the mast. If I can sail like that for a few months and there are no problems, I will remove it entirely.
Just looking for confirmation that this is not a really stupid idea which[/url] will cause my mast to bend in half.

you won't get that confirmation from me. it's a baby stay, not an inner fore stay. remove it the peril of your mast inverting.

[phetploy]

Originally Posted by Stumble

Your information is wrong. Not every sloop needs an inner forstay but it isn't uncommon either. It just depends on mast bend characteristics and how the rig is designed. They principle control the mid-mast bend point, so getting rid of it can cause all sorts of inversion problems.

Yes you could probably remove it, yes it will probably be ok in light air and flat water. But take her out in lumpy water or a big breeze and you could be dodging a broken mast.

That is what I would be afraid of. If it is important, it will control backwards bend of the mast at the point of attachment which is the upper spreader.

[phetploy]

Originally Posted by Scot McPherson

where does the stay attach to the mast? If it's at the mast head, it's probably redundant, but you may wish to beef up the head stay to make up for the loss of strength. if the stay attaches at the spreaders or anywhere else but the head, then the stay is performing some structural function.


If it's attached at the mast head are you sure you have a sloop? Maybe it's a stay for a hank on staysail.

The stay attaches to the mast at the upper spreaders so about 3/4 of the way up the mast. The model was made as a sloop and a cutter but there is no evidence in the form of sail tracks or winches that Phetploy has ever been a cutter. The headsail with the boat is a sloop style overlapping genoa and can be awkward to fit through the gap between the inner and outer forestay.

[buzzstar]

Opinion: If it is not intended for a sail, it is a terrible design flaw. IMO, with no claim to expertise, anything that causes unnecessary wear on a necessary sail means that the designer has not done the job. I an clear from the posts which category this fits into, but my opinion is if it is not used for another sail it is not good, and I admit to some doubt even if it is.

[phetploy]

Originally Posted by gjordan

Is the yard that built the boat still available for questions? Is the designer still around? Is the mast manufacturer still in business? Those would be the first people to ask. I went looking for data, but did not find much. The for sale adds say Cutter ketch which really means a double headsail Ketch. On a utube video I did see running backs so maybe the mast needs extra support, but runners are usually to counteract the staysail. I owned a Peterson 44 for 8 years and even though it was designed as a cutter, it was sold into the Bareboat Charter fleet so they didnt install the inner. The mast would pump under certain conditions, so I would just snug the windward runner and it would quiet down. I later added a removable inner and had a staysail cut, but I considered it a passage sail and only rarely hooked up the inner. By the way, that is a beautiful boat that you have. _____Grant.

The yard is still around I believe. It is in China but had American ownership. They haven't made the 48 for 30 years or so now. As well as no winches, there are also no running backstays nor any evidence on the mast that they were ever there.
Thanks on Phetploy's behalf for the compliment. We picked her up 3 years ago in a yard in Malaysia with no working engine and the interior completely stripped due to a termite attacked. Rebuilt inside and a new 2nd hand Yanmar and just back on the water since last October.

[Dave22q]

DIY marine design is generally a bad idea. You might consider altering your tacking behavior. Careful sheet management should let you tack ahead of the fore-stay similar to tacking an asymmetric spinnaker. Pulling a sail between the fore-stays is asking for trouble.

[phetploy]

Originally Posted by jrbogie

you won't get that confirmation from me. it's a baby stay, not an inner fore stay. remove it the peril of your mast inverting.

That is the majority opinion so I guess i need to rethink. Furling the Genoa works OK for long tacks and is not much of a problem if gybing, but is not really an option for short tacking or club racing, especially short handed.

What is the difference between a baby stay and an inner forestay?

Seems like there was just one rig design which they sold as a cutter first and then changed to a sloop for the later models without redesigning the rig. It doesn't make sense from a practical sailing point of view to have the inner stay there

[phetploy]

Originally Posted by Dave22q

DIY marine design is generally a bad idea. You might consider altering your tacking behavior. Careful sheet management should let you tack ahead of the fore-stay similar to tacking an asymmetric spinnaker. Pulling a sail between the fore-stays is asking for trouble.

I cannot see how this would work tacking. This is a huge sail to pull into the wind round the front of the forestay. It might be feasible for a gybe.

We are often short handed and frequently sail with novice crews.