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**estarzinger** · 15-07-2016, 15:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Anyway, back to the issue of trapezoid whipping on strops. Anyone know of any instructions online? I am not sure what stops the loops of the wider turns near the ring sliding down in time if thin whipping line is used.

SWL

This is really in the vast category of "decorative work" where there is a ton of history but it is not well documented.

I have only done a cursory examination of the approaches. Essentially you have two "systems" for maintaining the trapezoid - on option is various crosses and hitches in the whipping between the two main strands. You see a cross in the pretty pic you posted. These prevent consecutive wraps from slipping over each other, and some to varying degrees also clamp the main strands. The second option is staggered central 90 degree turns - like the central turns you used, but staggered so there are more at the top than the bottom.

If one or a couple of us played around with this and agreed on a good/best approach a bet grog would list it on his site with credit, because there is not (to my knowledge) an agreed documented best solution.

I suspect for development it would be easier to work with a huge scale prototype - like 3/4" main strands and Para cord whipping. Next time I get to out storage shed I will try to remember to pull out some material to work with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

The only problem is that I can see how you could sew between strands for the outer core of the buried portion, but how could you achieve this for the inner bit? I find I need to push the dyneema together to find an easy path and I rely on vision as well as feel to do this. I can't see how this could be done well for the buried portion. Or is it that not "violating" the outer portion that can be milked is more important than what happens to the inner bit?
SWL

If the section of buried inner portion is already essentially unbraided - as it usually is at the tail of the taper - then I do not believe there is any concern. And and the start of the bury, where the inner portion is still braided, I find a careful fid will/can find is way around the strands.

Some ropes have tighter/ firmer strands than others, but if they are soft then "violating" them is less bad anyway.

So I guess what I am suggesting is that with a bit of care and a blunt fid this is sort of self correcting - it will find its way around the strands if it is important and may not if it is not important.

My testing suggested you have to really mess this up to effect strength - really pull oddly/unevenly on the strands. And if your stitches are somewhat loose - they will self-adjust, even if you do get the strand path a bit wrong. If you do a moderately careful moderately neat moderately loose stitch it has zero impact on ultimate load.

The commercial high load heavy lifting guys I talk to all stitch, none use the Brummell.

**estarzinger** · 15-07-2016, 15:28

You know a trapezoidal leather piece might work well and look more "Bristol" than heat shrink.

bpratt1152 · 15-07-2016, 22:19

I don't know what a Grog Sling is. I have been introduced to a shackle replacement made of Dyneema. Which would replace the use of a stainless Steel shackle between the genie sheet and the clew. Thereby avoiding the possibility of getting a heavy shackle slapped against ones head. Please inform me of exactly what a Grog Sling is and where it is used.

**StuM** · 16-07-2016, 02:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by bpratt1152

I don't know what a Grog Sling is. I have been introduced to a shackle replacement made of Dyneema. Which would replace the use of a stainless Steel shackle between the genie sheet and the clew. Thereby avoiding the possibility of getting a heavy shackle slapped against ones head. Please inform me of exactly what a Grog Sling is and where it is used.

Se Grog Sling | How to tie the Grog Sling | Splicing Knots

I think you're talking about soft shackles. There are several threads here which discuss them in great detail. A forum search will find them

tstano · 16-07-2016, 03:21

Those look nice. Do you have any pictures of the strop in use because I really don't see where I would use them.

All U Get

**Seaworthy Lass** · 16-07-2016, 05:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by tstano

Those look nice. Do you have any pictures of the strop in use because I really don't see where I would use them.

All U Get

Low friction rings are used a lot racing and are creeping into use cruising. Strops are one way of securing them (eg using a cow hitch).

Some of the photos I found online lead to this SA thread, post #401:
Construction of a Pogo 12.50 - Page 5 - Sailing Anarchy - Sailing Anarchy Forums

SWL

**Seaworthy Lass** · 16-07-2016, 05:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by estarzinger

This is really in the vast category of "decorative work" where there is a ton of history but it is not well documented.

I have only done a cursory examination of the approaches. Essentially you have two "systems" for maintaining the trapezoid - on option is various crosses and hitches in the whipping between the two main strands. You see a cross in the pretty pic you posted. These prevent consecutive wraps from slipping over each other, and some to varying degrees also clamp the main strands. The second option is staggered central 90 degree turns - like the central turns you used, but staggered so there are more at the top than the bottom.

If one or a couple of us played around with this and agreed on a good/best approach a bet grog would list it on his site with credit, because there is not (to my knowledge) an agreed documented best solution.

I suspect for development it would be easier to work with a huge scale prototype - like 3/4" main strands and Para cord whipping. Next time I get to out storage shed I will try to remember to pull out some material to work with.

Thanks for all this info, plus that on lock stitching.

A CF team effort should be able to come up with something good regarding the trapezoid shaped whipping. Anyone here with decorative rope work skills that can chime in? Apart from a Turk's Head, my knowledge and skills are next to zero when it comes to decorative rope work so I am handicapped here, not that this will stop me trying

. I will have a play with this later.

Regarding the general concept of securing a low tension ring, I think it would help to know what would be the ideal features we are aiming for.

Here are my thoughts:

• The low tension ring is secure when used - we shouldn't lose sight of the primary aim

• The binding is secure, it should not have any tendency to slide down
• The strength of the strop is not compromised, so:
- The throat angle of the dyneema is soft near the ring (min 2:1)
- Minimal stress is put on the dyneema with the binding (no tight clamping or separation of the strands)
• Relatively quick
• Suits the skills of most people tying these strops
• Doesn't need lots of equipment or hard to source supplies
• Inexpensive
• Not offensive to the eye

Any comments or anything else to add?

Looking at the list, my thought is that all this would be hard to achieve with whipping twine or paracord alone. I would love to learn how to do the trapezoid whipping such as you posted a photo of and it would be fantastic to have online instructions for this, but this would almost certainly not be a quick thing to do and a lot of patience would be needed to get the symmetry and tension right. It probably would not suit most people making these strops for low tension rings.

Given that I think complicated whipping falls short of an ideal solution for binding the ring, at the moment my thoughts go back to using 2mm cord. It does not cut into the dyneema and it is also very forgiving when it comes to precision. Its bulk makes it quick to work with.

I had a go using some 2mm double braid a few weeks ago (see photo in post #29 above), but it was awkward and looked a bit clunky, as securing braid neatly was not easy. To hide ends of the braid, I buried them in the spliced dyneema (I doubt this is a good thing to do).

I think the easiest way of securing the loose ends and hiding them would be to use 2mm dyneema, not double braid, and simply splice the ends together around the low tension ring.

So with that in mind, I gave it a go.
Here is the result. The reverse side looks absolutely identical:

I think it meets all the criteria except for the last item on my list above. It used 1.4 m of 2mm dyneema. This is not as cheap as whipping twine or cord or even velcro, but then again it would not add a lot to the total cost of the strop and ring.

The dyneema strop can actually run reasonably freely around the ring, which I really like. This means regardless of how the strop is finally secured, the tension in the two legs can equalise easily. The binding can't slide down, but the strop is not penetrated at all.

I think the binding is secure. The dyneema cord is spliced around the ring.

Before I go to the trouble of writing instructions and taking photos to explain the procedure, what do you think of the concept?

SWL

**estarzinger** · 16-07-2016, 05:56

^^ looks nice.

I am not sure why you think you need dyneema for the whipping? It does not need to be particularly strong. I guess you like the single braid for its end to end splice? But there are other decent ways to terminate/hide the ends. Again it does not need "extra strength" - so you could just use the very similar "cover to cover" splice with double braid (this is the standard end to end for decorative para cord work), or tuck the ends in the conventional sailmaker whipping way (after taking over top of ring) or even just Your favorite bend. . . And I suspect there are 2/3mm Dacron/nylon single braids (could just use the cover off 3mm double braid).

**Seaworthy Lass** · 16-07-2016, 06:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by estarzinger

^^ looks nice.

I am not sure why you think you need dyneema for the whipping? It does not need to be particularly strong.

The only reason is to bury the ends. They could be sewn together, then tucked into the binding, but this starts to get more complicated then.

**Seaworthy Lass** · 16-07-2016, 06:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by estarzinger

..... But there are other decent ways to terminate/hide the ends. Again it does not need yo extra strength - so you could just use the very similar "cover to cover" splice with double braid . . . And I suspect there are 2/3mm Dacron single braids.

The cover to cover splice is a good thought.
I have never heard of 2mm Dacron single braid. That could work too.
That opens up choice of material then.

I will get stuck into photos to show the steps. Essentially it is just corset type lacing again

, but with a crossover.

SWL

**estarzinger** · 16-07-2016, 06:26

Also - if we are going to tie/splice over the top of the ring . . . . Is not most of that whipping unnecessary? Don't we just need the very first "clamp" row and then "over the top"?

The primary reason a whipping is long with many clamp rows is to create friction so it does not slip. But you are tieing "over the top" to prevent slipping, don't you just need one "binding" underneath to hold the ring in - right?

**GordMay** · 16-07-2016, 06:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by estarzinger

... 2. Really - please make that whipping just a little cleaner

I have never looked but somewhere there must be done good instructions/video on how to make a nice proper whipping - anyone have a good link? ...

**Seaworthy Lass** · 16-07-2016, 06:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by estarzinger

Also - if we are going to tie/splice over the top of the ring . . . . Is not most of that whipping unnecessary? Don't we just need the very first "clamp" row and then "over the top"?

The primary reason a whipping is long with many clamp rows is to create friction so it does not slip. But you are tieing "over the top" to prevent slipping, don't you just need one "binding" underneath to hold the ring in - right?

Yes, just one row would be enough. I gave it 8 purely for aesthetics. I paused at 4 and 6, but it looked a bit skimpy.