Downwind Sail for Ocean Race

[GILow]

Originally Posted by slug

An asymmetric must be fully hoisted, to blocked ... for stability and to reduce halyard chafe

The tack can be high if you use a tack headstay strop to keep the sail on centerline and stabilize the asymmetric

The combination makes a good set for a cruiser with a cluttered stem head

An asymmetric that is short on luff length also has the advantage of being flown off the spi pole

In conditions were you must sail deep it’s a decent combination

Well, that's an interesting set of assertions but they are not my experience.

Mine flies very steady without any special need for supporting lines or the pole, though I do need the pole to run deep.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

Also for @dockhead, the ability to fly the sail from your (fully lowered) spinnaker pole can really enhance the useful range of the sail.

So a question: What setup do you have on the inboard end of the spinnaker pole? Do you have an adjustable track on the mast? Can you lower the pole to a horizontal position just above the lifelines / pulpit height?

Yes, I have a track on the mast with an endless rope to adjust the height of the car. I think the lowest position is about even with the lifelines.

Originally Posted by jmh2002

Also on the subject of shackles (and this can be subjective - but back in the day I was a professional sailor, race boat captain, bowman, etc), I would recommend a trigger release type of shackle, not the pin release type common on cruising boats.

Here is an example: https://www.tylaska.com/product-cate...ease-shackles/

And you should have a couple of shackle fids (spikes) for these too.
https://www.tylaska.com/product/knurled-fids/
(you can even get a remote release version these days)

In light air none of this should be necessary of course (and in really light air we would just bowline the sheets because the shackles are heavy and affect the sail shape), but if something goes wrong, a squall comes through, or whatever, it's a nice safety feature to be able to spike the shackle under load and release the sail (spike the guy, not the sheet).

I use soft shackles for all my sheets. Would that not be suitable here? I might actually cow hitch on long bare dyneema leaders -- like 10 meters long each, then soft shackle the sheets to those. To reduce the weight for light air.



What kind of forces should I expect? Much less than a normal jib, right? So 12mm dyneema double braid should be OK for the sheets?


I might even have an adequate quantity of 12mm polyester so I wouldn't have to buy anything.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Yes, I have a track on the mast with an endless rope to adjust the height of the car. I think the lowest position is about even with the lifelines.

That's great. You may then consider the option of flying the sail from the pole too.

Your boat probably isn't fast enough to justify gybing downwind at big angles (reaching effectively) and best VMG will probably be made running deeper. You will need to experiment and the pole allows you to do that.

Set the pole with it's own guy/brace, topping lift, and downhaul like normal, and the sail tack line through the pole end and down to the bow (to a block and back to a winch preferably).

It's more complicated of course, and I maybe wouldn't suggest it for short course racing or cruising with an inexperienced crew, because gybing is more involved.

But for longer distances, or cruising passages, where you set up and sail on that gybe for extended periods, then it can add a lot of options.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I use soft shackles for all my sheets. Would that not be suitable here?

Soft shackles can be suitable too. But you can't spike to release them under load (well, not with the ordinary variant anyway).

Keep a sharp knife handy in case of emergency.
This shouldn't really happen in light air, but it's easy to get addicted to this new found boat speed and have a breeze build from behind you before you know it.

So pay attention to your true and apparent wind speeds.

Hope this helps.

PS: just to be clear, given that the sail tack will be above the pulpit anyway, you do still have both options of course, to fly from the bow, or from the pole. That's useful.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

That's great. You may then consider the option of flying the sail from the pole too.

Your boat probably isn't fast enough to justify gybing downwind at big angles (reaching effectively) and best VMG will probably be made running deeper. You will need to experiment and the pole allows you to do that.

Set the pole with it's own guy/brace, topping lift, and downhaul like normal, and the sail tack line through the pole end and down to the bow (to a block and back to a winch preferably).

It's more complicated of course, and I maybe wouldn't suggest it for short course racing or cruising with an inexperienced crew, because gybing is more involved.

But for longer distances, or cruising passages, where you set up and sail on that gybe for extended periods, then it can add a lot of options.



Soft shackles can be suitable too. But you can't spike to release them under load (well, not with the ordinary variant anyway).

Keep a sharp knife handy in case of emergency.
This shouldn't really happen in light air, but it's easy to get addicted to this new found boat speed and have a breeze build from behind you before you know it.

So pay attention to your true and apparent wind speeds.

Hope this helps.

PS: just to be clear, given that the sail tack will be above the pulpit anyway, you do still have both options of course, to fly from the bow, or from the pole. That's useful.

Thanks for all the great advice!


When you say "fly from the pole" -- do you mean with the tack at the pole, rather than the clew, like this:




This was discussed on SA, and one guy said this:


"You can do it and it works. It's complicated. It makes for a spiderweb of the foredeck and for a giant bowl of spaghetti in your cockpit.

"Recommend: use on long leg distance races only and with decent foredeck talent. Better option: just get a proper sprit."

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/ind...off-spin-pole/

Or did you mean just poling out the clew?

[jmh2002]

PPS: You might also try setting your staysail as well. Depending on the angle it may add boatspeed - or it may not, you will need to experiment with this too.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Thanks for all the great advice!
When you say "fly from the pole" -- do you mean with the tack at the pole, rather than the clew

Yes, with the tack at pole, so that you can move the whole sail more to windward, to be able to sail a deeper downwind angle.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

This was discussed on SA, and one guy said this:

"You can do it and it works. It's complicated. It makes for a spiderweb of the foredeck and for a giant bowl of spaghetti in your cockpit.

"Recommend: use on long leg distance races only and with decent foredeck talent. Better option: just get a proper sprit."

Agreed, as I alluded to earlier. Although really no more than flying a conventional symmetric spinnaker downwind (but yes, this is a spaghetti in itself). There is only 1 extra line, the tack line.

But once you are setup and going you are mostly only adjusting the sheet. So all those extra lines become mostly static.

As a different example, in light air and also through the night we flew a conventional (but smaller) spinnaker from the pole on a Swan 51 during a trans atlantic cruising passage where I was the only crew member with racing experience (plus 2 other sailors, and 2 non sailors), and the B&G autopilot was steering (set to wind angle). So it doesn't necessarily need to be all that difficult either.

This is the reason that people like bowsprits and asymmetrics though. There are a lot less lines - it appears to be a 'big headsail' and you mostly only have the 2 sheets to think about.

But if you want to be able to run deeper downwind angles you don't have much choice except to use a pole (or an articulating bowsprit). This is where cats are helpful - you can tack the sail to the windward bow for dead downwind - no pole required.

For cruising some people also set their asymmetric 'wing on wing' with a pole and the mainsail. So in that instance the pole is attached to the clew, just like poling out a headsail. You will have that option too.

As I mentioned, you are not forced into one or the other.
If you buy a sail that will set above the pulpit, then you can fly it direct from the bow, or from the pole, or wing on wing, as required.

In light air you may need to head up a little anyway (not dead downwind) to create some apparent wind to get the boat moving.

There are a lot of variables.

PS: A little trick in light air is to head up, create some apparent, build the boatspeed, and then slowly head back down, carrying the speed and apparent with you. Eventually you slow down though, so you repeat the process, effectively steering a big long "S" downwind, rather than a straight line.

[Michael Cobbe]

But should I consider something else?



You could consider a Twistle riig that has frree flying poles with a conector in the middle, this cuts down rollng because they are free flying. Two ropes are needed from each side of the sails led back to the cockpit A spinnaker pole pushes the mast and vice versa which creates rolliing. Also when the wind gets strong the spinnaker has to be taken down but a Twistle rig can be reefed.

[Dockhead]

I like it better and better!


And now here's another thing:


My spinnaker pole came from a TP52, and it extends more than 2 meters beyond my forestay (my J is 6m, and the pole is 8 and something).


I was planning to cut it down to 7 meters, BUT -- now after looking at different photos of how people are flying assys off poles, I'm starting to think that this pole might not be too long after all. I would start to worry about dipping the pole if I were poling out the clew, though. If set 90 degrees from the bow, the pole will extend more than 5 meters beyond the rail But it would be fantastic if set fore and aft -- it will extend a good 2 meters ahead of the pulpit, which would put the sail out in good clean air when running deep, and give breathing space for my staysail . . .



How to deal with the 5 (!) lines involved however is something to think about. The two sheets go to turning blocks on the quarter and then to my primary winches. Two guys through two more turning blocks (?) and to my secondaries. Tackline -- if my staysail is in use, I can't use the staysail sheet. Hmmm.



I get it that the forward end of the pole needs to be cranked down almost touch the bow pulpit, right?

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Asymmetric off spin pole? - Sailing Anarchy - Sailing Anarchy Forums

I read through that thread, and down to post #16 pretty much covers things correctly.

On your masthead rig I would run the sheets "outside" for gybing, not inside. If you are not clear what that means re-read the SA thread and then ask me if needed.

"The trick is not to worry about the pole during or immediately after the jibe. The chute flies just fine off the bow"

^^^ Agreed. To gybe:
- Pole forward almost to the forestay
- Release the tack from the pole and let it fly off the bow.
- Then you can fluff around and take your time moving the pole
- Reconnect it to the tack on the other side and pretension
(the tack line will already be sagging to leeward)
- Gybe
- And then winch the pole/tack back to the new position as required.

You could also sock the sail, gybe, and unsock it again if you are not feeling comfortable.

A point for you to note, is don't get a sail that is 'too long' on the luff, for obvious reasons.

I also think that in light air on long legs where you are not gybing back and forth all the time, you can reduce the amount of lines compared to the SA thread.

For the Sail: 1 halyard, 1 tack line, 2 sheets
For the Pole: 1 guy, 1 topping lift, 1 downhaul
(downhaul might be optional as the sail tack line will perform this function, but the separate downhaul is nice to keep the pole fixed in place)

2 guys will save having to relead it on the other gybe, but creates more spaghetti.

Hope this helps.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

I read through that thread, and down to post #16 pretty much covers things correctly.

On your masthead rig I would run the sheets "outside" for gybing, not inside. If you are not clear what that means re-read the SA thread and then ask me if needed.

"The trick is not to worry about the pole during or immediately after the jibe. The chute flies just fine off the bow"

^^^ Agreed. To gybe:
- Release the tack from the pole and let it fly off the bow.
- Then you can fluff around and take your time moving the pole
- Reconnect it to the tack on the other side and pretension
(the tack line will already be sagging to leeward)
- Gybe
- And then winch the pole/tack back to the new position as required.

You could also sock the sail, gybe, and unsock it again if you are not feeling comfortable.

A point for you to note, is don't get a sail that is 'too long' on the luff, for obvious reasons.

I also think that in light air on long legs where you are not gybing back and forth all the time, you can reduce the amount of lines compared to the SA thread.

For the Sail: 1 halyard, 1 tack line, 2 sheets
For the Pole: 1 guy, 1 topping lift, 1 downhaul
(downhaul might be optional as the sail tack line will perform this function, but the separate downhaul is nice to keep the pole fixed in place)

2 guys will save having to relead it on the other gybe, but creates more spaghetti.

Hope this helps.

It sure as hell does help; I am very grateful that you are taking the time to explain this. I am very excited about having a new sail on the boat, and learning new techniques. This is FUN.


I really want to reduce the spaghetti and I'm not worried about gybing. This is a nearly 1000 mile race. I think we could very well gybe just by dousing the chute and starting all over again -- the ultimate chicken gybe.



However, we seem to have picked up a new line -- downhaul for the pole? Wouldn't the tack line do that?


Topping lift goes to the sling in the middle of the pole -- and I have a second spin halyard which can be used for that. We will be able to adjust that only at the mast, however.



So how is the pole end attached? The tackline runs through the outer jaws?


I can see I'm going to need to make up a bunch of low friction rings with strops. If I do need a pole downhaul then I guess I could run that to a mooring cleat, or through a low friction eye and cleat it at the mast.


The guy would run from the windward side of the pole, right? So this would balance sheet tension to stabilize the tack and pole in the horizontal plane, right?


I forgot that I will have preventers rigged if we are running deep. Damn. Now I'm short a winch. I run preventers to a secondary winch on the leeward side. I could possibly run through a cam cleat to free up the winch for a guy, but do I need a guy only on the windward side?

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I like it better and better!

NB: your long pole is both a plus and a minus.
As you said, the extra forward projection is helpful in theory.
But there are some geometry issues to consider, because there is a lot of load on the tack line.
If the pole is 'too long' you risk not having enough downwards vertical pull on the tackline, and instead creating a lot of compression on the pole (which may break it).

So you will need to do some tests and measurements, set up the pole, yes initially at the lowest position above the pulpit, and check the geometry to the block on the bow through which you will lead the tackline (NB: the existing pole downhaul will probably NOT be strong enough for this).

Of course all of this will also have a bearing on the sail size / luff length that you purchase.

This will all be a bit trial an error to be honest, since you are piecing the setup together with ad hoc parts.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

NB: your long pole is both a plus and a minus.
As you said, the extra forward projection is helpful in theory.
But there are some geometry issues to consider, because there is a lot of load on the tack line.
If the pole is 'too long' you risk not having enough downwards vertical pull on the tackline, and instead creating a lot of compression on the pole (which may break it).

So you will need to do some tests and measurements, set up the pole, yes initially at the lowest position above the pulpit, and check the geometry to the block on the bow through which you will lead the tackline (NB: the existing pole downhaul will probably NOT be strong enough for this).

Of course all of this will also have a bearing on the sail size / luff length that you purchase.

This will all be a bit trial an error to be honest, since you are piecing the setup together with ad hoc parts.

OK, thanks. I see that. I need to get to the boat to see what all this looks like in real life.


The pole is immensely strong -- it came off a TP52. So I'm afraid what will break will be the track, and not the pole. I don't want to overstress it. I could cut it down a bit.


I see that there will be a lot of compression on the pole if it is sticking out too far. I guess I want the tackline to make an angle through the end of the pole of something more than 90 degrees. I guess I could rig a strop to take the inflection point aftward, rather than cutting it down.


And the luff length will play a big role!! The shorter the luff, the higher the pole will be, and the milder the tackline angle for a given forward projection.


Whew, it's complicated.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

How to deal with the 5 (!) lines involved however is something to think about. The two sheets go to turning blocks on the quarter and then to my primary winches. Two guys through two more turning blocks (?) and to my secondaries. Tackline -- if my staysail is in use, I can't use the staysail sheet. Hmmm.

Remember, re the sheets and guys, only 1 line will be in use at a time. The others are called the lazy sheet, and the lazy guy. For cruising you could even omit them if you are going to sock the sail during gybes.

On a normal symmetrical setup you have a 'double block' of some type back aft, and the sheet and lazy guy (and vice versa) both run through that block, then up to a winch. The lazy guy/sheet just sits there next to the winch, unused, until gybing, when one is spun off, and the other taken onto the same winch.

This is the start of the spaghetti in the cockpit (4 lines, 2 in use, 2 not), and I think you can avoid some of it for your purposes.

Also:

1 (in use) sheet to your leeward primary
(the other lazy sheet just sits close to the windward primary)

1 (in use) guy to your windward primary
(the other lazy guy just sits close to your leeward primary)

If you want, omit the lazy guy, and just rerun it during the gybe. It's not a big deal, we are not talking about seconds lost on a round the buoys race.
The pole will be disconnected at this time, and the guy slack.
The sail will be flying on it's tackline, direct from the bow.

It's nice to have the tackline lead through a big turning block and back to a winch on deck (a spare halyard winch maybe?), but that's a bit boat dependant. Can you post a photo of your boat's deck layout?

If the tackline can go to a spare halyard winch on deck then that should keep your secondary winches free for your staysail.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

OK, thanks. I see that. I need to get to the boat to see what all this looks like in real life.

Yes you have mostly got it as far as understanding everything. Bear in mind that the geometry changes as the pole comes aft too.

Additionally, the pole may be immensely strong, but only in it's designed load bearing directions. I've seen plenty of race boat poles broken through misuse.

You may in fact need to have the pole set a bit higher to get the geometry to work, in turn reducing your luff length and overall sail area - but enabling you to sail a deeper angle.

It's all a trade off.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

Remember, re the sheets and guys, only 1 line will be in use at a time. The others are called the lazy sheet, and the lazy guy. For cruising you could even omit them if you are going to sock the sail during gybes.

On a normal symmetrical setup you have a 'double block' of some type back aft, and the sheet and lazy guy (and vice versa) both run through that block, then up to a winch. The lazy guy/sheet just sits there next to the winch, unused, until gybing, when one is spun off, and the other taken onto the same winch.

This is the start of the spaghetti in the cockpit (4 lines, 2 in use, 2 not), and I think you can avoid some of it for your purposes.

Also:

1 (in use) sheet to your leeward primary
(the other lazy sheet just sits close to the windward primary)

1 (in use) guy to your windward primary
(the other lazy guy just sits close to your leeward primary)

If you want, omit the lazy guy, and just rerun it during the gybe. It's not a big deal, we are not talking about seconds lost on a round the buoys race.
The pole will be disconnected at this time, and the guy slack.
The sail will be flying on it's tackline, direct from the bow.

It's nice to have the tackline lead through a big turning block and back to a winch on deck (a spare halyard winch maybe?), but that's a bit boat dependant. Can you post a photo of your boat's deck layout?

If the tackline can go to a spare halyard winch on deck then that should keep your secondary winches free for your staysail.

My staysail is self-tacking so only one sheet, led to the port side of the coachroof through a cam cleat to an electric winch which also services mainsheet and vang. Only problem with all this -- more spaghetti -- when I'm using the staysail in earnest I normally barber haul it one way or the other to control clew position. Hell if I know how I'm going to find a way to do that with all the winches occupied. Maybe need to bring the barber hauler around to the windward side where a winch or two should be free.



I have two non-self tailing winches on either side of the mast. The port side one is for white sail halyards so could be free. But I don't have a cam cleat which could be used there. I have normal horn cleats though. Going to have to think about this. Maybe I could run this line back to the cockpit and use the cam cleat position for the topping lift. I could cleat off the topping lift at the mast. Then I could regulate the tackline from the cockpit using a big electric winch and cam cleat. That winch services topping lift, mainsail furling lines, outhaul.



Don't know how fair the lead will be over the foredeck -- I'll need to look at it in real life when I get back to the boat.