Downwind Sail for Ocean Race

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

. . . So we are trying to fudge a solution that does a bit of everything, combined with the existing gear onboard too.

Exactly.


And I think I'm sold on the assy. As long as the wind is ahead of the beam, we can do hull speed in a wide range of conditions on the white sails. Would be nice to have yet another sail which would help in the really light stuff, but I'm already carrying two headsails (plus staysail) and I don't have a sail locker. Storage is a real problem.



A sail which can solved problems in light air with wind abaft the beam would be the best all-arounder for this use case.


Cruising later, maybe it will save engine hours. In wind abaft the beam too light to give 5 or 6 knots of boat speed, I just put on the motor and motor sail, normally. Would be fun to have another way to deal with these conditions.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Can anyone tell from these dimensions, what the cut of these sails is?


Sail 1 Luff 20.27 Leech 15.54 Foot 9.45 1 oz cloth

Sail 2 Luff 19.84 Leech 18.49 Foot 8.63 1.2 oz cloth


And to compare with Rolly Tasker Size 14:


Luff 20.4 Leech 18.9 foot 11.85 1.5 oz cloth


Depending on the length of the snuffer leader, I guess I want luff length of about 20.5 (21.75 - .7 pulpit height - .8 ? leader length) or possibly a little less.


Sail 2 has a much shorter foot than Sail 1 -- which is what cut? Can anyone tell from this?

They are both assym, but you cannot tell the shape or intended purpose from those dimensions, except that sail #1 is much smaller and more appropriate for a cruising chute.

The reason the foot length of sail 2 is less is because the luff and leech are closer in length.

The rolly tasker #14 sail is much closer to what you need.

[Dockhead]

OK, so now I have an offer in on an A2 of about 200m2, I need to think about ordering anything else I need.


This sail does not come with launch bag or snuffer, so I will need those. I think I can source those used in the UK. How short can the snuffer be? 3 meters? There are plenty of used ones but none quite as big as this sail, which has a 21.15m luff.


Then I need one or two sheets and one or two guys. 12mm racing dyneema enough for a sail this size? That gives 6250 kgf average breaking strength -- surely enough? I do have a couple of 14mm racing dyneema sheets from the jib, but I guess they will be too short -- assy needs much longer sheets, right?


Tack line I will lead through a block stropped to the anchor roller, back through to the cockpit if I can get a fair lead, and will use the topping lift cam cleat. I'll use one of my two preventers for that, I guess -- 10mm racing dyneema. I'll need to acquire the block.


I've got the topping lift.


I don't need a downhaul but I might rig a line that can hold the pole while the tackline is slack for any reason.



Couple turning blocks for the sheets I've got.


Jockey pole to keep reaosonable angle on the guy when the pole is well forward?



Anything else?

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

A lot of these used sails have sail numbers on them.


What can you do about that? I guess you have to sew a panel over them? Seems like a PITA.

If sewn on they can be removed. Otherwise you tell the race organizers you are using a sail with an alternate number. I've had my used sails changed by the sailmaker.

[jmh2002]

Since this is a distance race, we didn't cover too much about 'racing gybes', since @Dockhead isn't too experienced in this area (yet!) and we figured seconds didn't count as much like around the buoys.

Better to have a nice safe clear gybe, even if it's slow. Then confidence will come.

But that's another advantage of the asymmetric - it has a tackline. So to gybe:
- pole forward to the forestay
- open the jaws to free the tackline
- let the sail fly from the bow
- swap the pole to the other side of the forestay (and the guy if only using 1)

- if the pole length won't allow it to clear the forestay (even with the inboard end raised all the way up the mast), then instead of raising it, keep it low and disconnect the mast end instead, move the pole back, then swap sides, then reconnect to the mast. It took longer to write than it will to do this.

- if you want to actually gybe the asymmetric you can do so
- or you can snuff it first, gybe, rerun the lines, and then unsnuff it

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

So I'm inclined to go with the first one of these, which is a North sail and at an outstanding price.


It's a bit bigger which is good from a horsepower point of view -- I am specifically concerned about light winds.



It's supposed to be from a Swan 42, but what Swan 42 has a 70' forestay??


The luff of this is right at two feet less than my forestay length, so it's probably not going to complete clear my bow pulpit -- is that a problem? If a little bit hangs over?

It is not a problem. The bottom of the sail will rest on the pulpit, and eventually it might show some wear. Just make sure you don't have a bow light around there which can snag the sail. In that case a stainless guard could be added.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Thanks. Maybe I need a newer one. There's a quite new one in the UK for about £2000, which is no longer $3000. And my sailmaker offers to make me one in time for £3300, but that's without launching bag or sock. Hmmmm.

Yeah, the ATN ones are shockingly expensive.

Yes, I know all cruisers use socks, but we don't, never have. It is extra lines aloft to get tangled (and expensive).

With a racing crew if five it isn't even an "all hands" evolution to set or douse a kite without a sock. (jibing might be).

Judy and I regularly fly either our symmetrical or assym kites without sock, and we're in our 70's. Our rule is don't put it up in over 20 knots, and take it down if the wind goes over 25, but that's with two persons. With a crew of 3 or more you can do a lot more.

Without a sock the helm's person is key. They need to watch where the sail is as it is coming down or going up and steer the boat to keep the sail in the correct spot, and not blowing through the foretriangle or way off to leeward.

My advice, skip the sock.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

...

Couple turning blocks for the sheets I've got.


Jockey pole to keep reaosonable angle on the guy when the pole is well forward?

Anything else?

Seems like the list is coming together.

I'm not sure that you need the jockey pole yet. Sure it's nice to have, but when you will have the spinnaker pole that far forward you may as well just fly the sail from the tackline without the pole.

Also, do you even have fittings on the mast for a jockey pole?

Ok good if you have the aft turning blocks.

As I mentioned earlier you may need some low friction rings to help with the lead on the sheet:

- if it wants to chafe on the boom (or something else)
- or just to help with trim for different sailing angles

If you are going to use a quick attachment for the sheet blocks you can also set another one further forward if required.

Do you have an aluminium toerail with holes in it?

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by MartinR

That seems to be about perfect I would not worry too much about handling. Hoist it stropped and take it down in the lee of the main. Once it is up, the size matters very little.

Just a note, stops are now illegal due to the fact that the stops, either yarn or rubber bands, fall into the water. (Could you use spaghettis?)

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by wingssail

My advice, skip the sock.

I also suggested that earlier as an option.

But I'm not sure that Dockhead or any of his crew have ever flown any type of spinnaker before?

Then a racing drop that you and I think is easy, may become the stuff of nightmares.

But again, if all this is happening in 10kn true, it's not very daunting, there are no waves, the boat is flat, you can take your time, and with care the sail will mostly just fall straight down by itself and with a bit of guidance.

It's not going to be at a heated mark rounding, with the J1 being hoisted at the same time, and boat coming onto a heel to go upwind.



PS: pretty sure that even on the big TP52's they use retrieval lines now, like is done on dinghies and sport boats - but the TP52 ones are high speed mechanical versions)

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

Since this is a distance race, we didn't cover too much about 'racing gybes', since @Dockhead isn't too experienced in this area (yet!) and we figured seconds didn't count as much like around the buoys.

Better to have a nice safe clear gybe, even if it's slow. Then confidence will come.

But that's another advantage of the asymmetric - it has a tackline. So to gybe:
- pole forward to the forestay
- open the jaws to free the tackline
- let the sail fly from the bow
- swap the pole to the other side of the forestay (and the guy if only using 1)

- if the pole length won't allow it to clear the forestay (even with the inboard end raised all the way up the mast), then instead of raising it, keep it low and disconnect the mast end instead, move the pole back, then swap sides, then reconnect to the mast. It took longer to write than it will to do this.

- if you want to actually gybe the asymmetric you can do so
- or you can snuff it first, gybe, rerun the lines, and then unsnuff it

Thanks very much.


I think I'll keep it as simple as possible and simply snuff it to gybe.


Although the procedure above sounds realistic too

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

OK, so I got discouraged about the U.S. EBay one, imagining the seams blowing out. Also the shipping is pretty horrendous, and then I have to mess with customs.


Now I've found, at a very good price, an unused North Sails M-H (medium-heavy) A2 off a Swan 45, for a very good price. Luff length is 18.8 meters, which is 2 or 3 meters short (my forestay is 21.75 meters long), area is 120m2.


So it's quite small for light wind, but would be usable up to a pretty high wind range. Would be easier to handle and should be fairly easy to rig since it won't come down to the bow pulpit. It will be easier to handle cruising short handed.

What do you guys think, will this suck? We are 20 tonnes light ship and probably 23-24 tonnes loaded. My foretriangle is 62m2 so my 120% yankee is probably 68m2 or so. So this sail will still be nearly twice the area of the poled-out yankee.

What do you think?

An unused North A2 is a great sail. I wonder about the area, it seems like it should be more for those dimensions. (My A2, on my 43' boat, is 129sq meters, I'd be surprised if that sail is not around 133sq mt). But I am sure that it will be very useful in any case. You might need to reach a little harder in the really light stuff to keep moving if it is both MH and undersized, but that is fun.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Just a note, stops are now illegal due to the fact that the stops, either yarn or rubber bands, fall into the water. (Could you use spaghettis?)

I forget what I saw recently - I think it was some type of push fit buttons permanently sewn into the sail, that pop open after hoisting and sheeting on - as a new solution for this problem.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

A side note, which may not go down well here on CF (especially when some people are already freaking out over this being such a 'big' sail), is that if you know what you are doing, ie: how to hoist and douse a chute properly, and especially if you have enough crew onboard (but not essential with the right techniques) then you don't need a sock at all.

In fact the socks can be more trouble than they are worth sometimes.

If you going to be using this sail in light air, mostly dead down wind, then it's even easier (we are not talking about surfing at 20kn in 35kn of wind in a big sea).

But of course you do need some knowledge of the racing techniques to do this. (simple example: pole forward to the forestay, blow the guy, trim the sheet, ease the halyard, and lower behind the mainsail)

After that, it can be pretty easy, even with these 'big' sails.

We never blow the guy (I mean never release the after guy). You just take the lazy sheet and pull the sail in behind the main while the halyard is eased fast or slow as needed and the helm's person drives the boat to keep it over the leeward foredeck. The sail comes down in front of the mast and directly into a bow hatch.

Another thing which is all the rage is a "letterbox" takedown, forget about it.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Yes, I have a track on the mast with an endless rope to adjust the height of the car. I think the lowest position is about even with the lifelines.





I use soft shackles for all my sheets. Would that not be suitable here? I might actually cow hitch on long bare dyneema leaders -- like 10 meters long each, then soft shackle the sheets to those. To reduce the weight for light air.



What kind of forces should I expect? Much less than a normal jib, right? So 12mm dyneema double braid should be OK for the sheets?


I might even have an adequate quantity of 12mm polyester so I wouldn't have to buy anything.

12mm dyneema double braid should be OK for the sheets?

This is overkill. We use 8mm dyneema for kites even in very heavy breeze. For light air performance keep the weight of the sheet down.

My only worry about soft shackles, and I know it is because I am old fashioned) is that they might shake out if the sail is flogging, which it will do at some point in your race.