Downwind Sail for Ocean Race

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Thanks for all the great advice!


When you say "fly from the pole" -- do you mean with the tack at the pole, rather than the clew, like this:

Attachment 216568


This was discussed on SA, and one guy said this:


"You can do it and it works. It's complicated. It makes for a spiderweb of the foredeck and for a giant bowl of spaghetti in your cockpit.

"Recommend: use on long leg distance races only and with decent foredeck talent. Better option: just get a proper sprit."

Asymmetric off spin pole? - Sailing Anarchy - Sailing Anarchy Forums

Or did you mean just poling out the clew?

The recommendation is to pole out the tack. It does not require a spiderweb of lines. The photo has it right.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I like it better and better!


And now here's another thing:


My spinnaker pole came from a TP52, and it extends more than 2 meters beyond my forestay (my J is 6m, and the pole is 8 and something).


I was planning to cut it down to 7 meters, BUT -- now after looking at different photos of how people are flying assys off poles, I'm starting to think that this pole might not be too long after all. I would start to worry about dipping the pole if I were poling out the clew, though. If set 90 degrees from the bow, the pole will extend more than 5 meters beyond the rail But it would be fantastic if set fore and aft -- it will extend a good 2 meters ahead of the pulpit, which would put the sail out in good clean air when running deep, and give breathing space for my staysail . . .



How to deal with the 5 (!) lines involved however is something to think about. The two sheets go to turning blocks on the quarter and then to my primary winches. Two guys through two more turning blocks (?) and to my secondaries. Tackline -- if my staysail is in use, I can't use the staysail sheet. Hmmm.



I get it that the forward end of the pole needs to be cranked down almost touch the bow pulpit, right?

If you are worried at all about rating, the longer pole will carry a heavy penalty (because it IS more efficient).

Jibing it is more complicated. To get that pole out to the new side you cannot just swing it through the fore triangle because it will be quite a bit too long. No problem. Once the pole tip is down and the tack of the sail is pulled to the stem fitting (tack fitting). You get the pole off of the tack of the sail, (open the jaws) and jibe the sail as if there was no pole.

But then you must take the pole off the mast and pull it aft until you can stick it out on the other side of the forestay, then run it forward and then put it back on the mast and deploy it on the tack line again and pull the sail aft on the new side. Sort of as much hassle as jibing a symmetrical kite, but definitely doable and very little risk as the sail is always tightly controlled.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

It sure as hell does help; I am very grateful that you are taking the time to explain this. I am very excited about having a new sail on the boat, and learning new techniques. This is FUN.


I really want to reduce the spaghetti and I'm not worried about gybing. This is a nearly 1000 mile race. I think we could very well gybe just by dousing the chute and starting all over again -- the ultimate chicken gybe.

However, we seem to have picked up a new line -- downhaul for the pole? Wouldn't the tack line do that?

Topping lift goes to the sling in the middle of the pole -- and I have a second spin halyard which can be used for that. We will be able to adjust that only at the mast, however.

So how is the pole end attached? The tackline runs through the outer jaws?

I can see I'm going to need to make up a bunch of low friction rings with strops. If I do need a pole downhaul then I guess I could run that to a mooring cleat, or through a low friction eye and cleat it at the mast.

The guy would run from the windward side of the pole, right? So this would balance sheet tension to stabilize the tack and pole in the horizontal plane, right?

I forgot that I will have preventers rigged if we are running deep. Damn. Now I'm short a winch. I run preventers to a secondary winch on the leeward side. I could possibly run through a cam cleat to free up the winch for a guy, but do I need a guy only on the windward side?

The tack line works perfectly for the pole downhaul (also known as foreguy). It stays attached to the sail and goes directly from the tack ring to the block at the stem fitting then back to the cockpit. It does not go through the jaws of the pole.

So how is the (outboard end) pole end attached? The guy (after guy or brace) is also attached to the sail (on the tack ring of the sail, the way we do it) and is laid into the jaws of the pole. So when you pull the pole back with the guy the ring on the tack of the sail is against the jaw of the pole and the whole kit and caboodle rotates out to windward as you ease the tack line and pull back the pole.

The balance of the loads against the pole are:
Guy pulls it aft, tackline pulls it forward, pole lift holds it up. The sheet is sort of irrelevant in that.

Since we are talking about an asymmetrical where you have plenty of time after a jibe to get the pole onto the new side (if you are even using the pole, remember, mostly you don't need it) you'll have plenty of time to free up the winch for it. And remember, the guy will go to a winch on the windward side, the preventer goes to a winch on the leeward side, so you can use the same two winches for the guys and the preventers.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

PS: pretty sure that even on the big TP52's they use retrieval lines now, like is done on dinghies and sport boats - but the TP52 ones are high speed mechanical versions)

Slightly off topic, but Dockhead may like it. These are the fast drops on the TP52 - 3 to 5 seconds:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3st365oLJc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSPnyUPtjc0

https://www.seahorsemagazine.com/93-...7-kite-strings

https://www.harken.com/article.aspx?id=43794

And some great sailing footage. This could be you soon Dockhead...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpVRJjvsWUM

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I have made an offer now on a 200m2 North Sails A2, with 70' luff. Seems about right. Will be slightly short since my forestay is 72' but that will give some margin for the snuffer.

OK! dynamite! that will do it. Practice jibing before your race.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

Seems like the list is coming together.

I'm not sure that you need the jockey pole yet. Sure it's nice to have, but when you will have the spinnaker pole that far forward you may as well just fly the sail from the tackline without the pole.

Also, do you even have fittings on the mast for a jockey pole?

Ok good if you have the aft turning blocks.

As I mentioned earlier you may need some low friction rings to help with the lead on the sheet:

- if it wants to chafe on the boom (or something else)
- or just to help with trim for different sailing angles

If you are going to use a quick attachment for the sheet blocks you can also set another one further forward if required.

Do you have an aluminium toerail with holes in it?

We gave up using a jockey pole in the 80's. With today's cordage and wide boats it just isn't needed. The guy needs a strong turning point amidships or aft and well outboard, and going to a big winch if you plan on carrying the kite in strong breezes with the pole far forward (pole on the headstay we term it, but it should never actually touch the headstay).

With several crew, or even shorthanded, skip the sock, keep it simple.

[jmh2002]

Yeah, it's interesting that the Volvo boats are using a reaching strut type device, but on the leeward side, to widen the sheeting angle for the A sails.

I think that's special within their class rules though, as otherwise it would normally be considered an outrigger and not be permitted.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

Slightly off topic, but Dockhead may like it. These are the fast drops on the TP52 - 3 to 5 seconds:

https://www.seahorsemagazine.com/93-...7-kite-strings

https://www.harken.com/article.aspx?id=43794

And some great sailing footage. This could be you soon Dockhead...

I just love all these videos. I just wish I had enough Internet data to watch them all, all day. Here is my favorite, due to the obvious acceleration after the jibe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beRVIHhAERc

[jmh2002]

Here is another article for you Dockhead, with some useful info to refer to:

https://www.quantumsails.com/en/reso...cal-trim-guide

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by wingssail

I just love all these videos. I just wish I had enough Internet data to watch them all, all day. Here is my favorite, due to the obvious acceleration after the jibe.

Oh yeah, it's really noticeable in that video when the A sail starts pulling, and they are off (although still trying to maintain control) !

[jmh2002]

Here is a good short one of the ETNZ boys way back in 2010 showing the rest of the TP52 fleet how it should be done, by passing them to leeward at high speed

Dockhead, this will NOT be you... (not yet anyway...)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Mu3st2RCZM

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

Here is another article for you Dockhead, with some useful info to refer to:

https://www.quantumsails.com/en/reso...cal-trim-guide

Since for some of us, learning to jibe the asymmetrical (even without the pole), was a bit tricky, here I will give some tips to add to the Quantum article:

Setting up (You will be doing outside jibes, (meaning the sail goes outside itself, turning inside out each time)
Attach downhaul. If there is a bowsprit, lead the downhaul over the sheets (inside jibes). If there’s not a bowsprit, lead the downhaul under sheets (outside jibes).(The key here is that both the downhaul (tack line) and the halyard must be inside the sheets, and THEY are OUTSIDE of the forestay. When the sail is hoisted the lazy sheet goes around outside of the sail and forestay

One common problem is that the lazy sheet can fall over the front of the boat and then down into the water, making it hard to jibe. A lot of boats add a small batten (10") sticking out and pointing up at a angle on the front edge of the spinnaker, kind of like a stiff, um, dick. The bowman lifts the lazy sheet up and hangs it on that prod so it can't fall down. You may see this in photos, I don't have a photo at the moment.


Jibes
Asymmetrical spinnakers are jibed, not tacked. To jibe, start with a fully-loaded sail. Bear off slowly, easing the sheet as smoothly and quickly as you can without collapsing the sail. For us, and on other boats I've sailed, when you are ready to jibe you release the sheet TOTALLY (I mean TOTALLY, release it completely, no wraps on the winch), before you begin to turn. When you see that the spinnaker has flown to in front of the boat, then you turn smoothly and sort of swiftly, under it and call for the forward hands to pull back the new sheet. If the sail goes inside of the fore triangle, you have to go back and do it all over.The trick is to use the sheet pressure to get the sail out in front of the boat. If the sail is not eased out before the boat gets downwind, it will collapse and fall into the headstay. As the boat passes through dead downwind, release the old sheet completely and take up the new sheet. Actually, we've released it long before this point
The sail is jibed outside and in front of the headstay when the tack is set on the stem. If you have a long enough bowsprit, you can jibe inside the tack downhaul. No matter which system you use, turn slowly and smoothly from a broad reach to a broad reach. Don’t stop in the middle of the turn, or you’ll encourage the sail to wrap around the headstay.
Watch the sail and turn no faster than the sail can be eased out. Make sure the clew has reached the headstay and is pulled around to the new side before completing the turn. The lighter the air, the higher the reaching angle, both at the outset and as you exit the jibe. In very light air, you may have to physically help the sail around the headstay.

Here is something to be careful of: When I am helming as soon as I see the clew coming back on the new side, being pulled by forward hands, often running along the side deck holdding the sheet, that is when I turn up to the new course. Once in a bit of breeze, as I suddenly turned up to the new course, the kite filled with a snap and tossed a forward hand right off the boat! What a strong man he was because he did a whole handstand and didn't let go, but then he face planted onto the sheer of the boat and split his forehead. From then on his wife made him wear a helmet

Oh, another point, have the main trimmer bring the main in to center before jibing. This lets more wind go through to the kite, keeping it out in front of the boat.

[jmh2002]

^^^ All good and useful extra points there from @wingssail

Originally Posted by wingssail

One common problem is that the lazy sheet can fall over the front of the boat and then down into the water, making it hard to jibe. A lot of boats add a small batten (10") sticking out and pointing up at a angle on the front edge of the spinnaker, kind of like a stiff, um, dick. The bowman lifts the lazy sheet up and hangs it on that prod so it can't fall down. You may see this in photos, I don't have a photo at the moment.

This small batten is sometimes referred to as a "Gybulator".

https://www.google.com/search?q=Gybulator

[Olaf Sorensen]

A gennaker might be a good compromise. When sailing downwind, it is a cross*between*a genoa and a*spinnaker. ... Due to its geometry, the sail is less prone to collapsing than a*spinnaker and gives easily so is a good compromise for two people on watch at night. A*gennaker*is optimal for a beam reach, while an asymmetrical*spinnaker*is optimal for a broad reach or run but I have found you can get quite deep with a gennaker if your not in total racing mode.

[Roshni]

46 ft performance cruiser. We use 108 % Genoa. Code zero on furler and asymmetric on down furler. For you Code zero is too loaded to set up easily.Light winds normal spinnaker. Buy good snuffer and practise it in light winds. Take spinnaker down early according to crew experience. Boom out Genoa in heavy down wind.