Dyneema and LFR inside boom....

[s/v Jedi]

I’m working on upgrading our main and mizzen reefing system. I have leech cringles, sheaves in the end of the boom as well as sheaves plus stoppers at the gooseneck.

Right now my reefing lines are tied around the boom, go up through the sail cringle, down through the sheave at the end of the boom, then run forward inside the boom, through the stopper and out the sheave there.

I have full batten sails so the luff comes down by itself and I use my Cunningham to secure the reef point at the luff.

The problem is that we’re lazy and we skip taking in the reefing lines when lowering the sail etc... which means flapping loops of rope, sometimes catching on to things. We used to have double braid creating knots but have been using 3/8” Samson Control DPX which is better as it’s single braid.

My idea is to use 1/4” Amsteel Blue, secure around the boom, up through the sail, down the sheave into the boom, around the low friction ring as in the picture, then back to the end of the boom to secure it to an internal padeye. The 3/8” line that is spliced to the ring goes to the stopper at the gooseneck. We use a winch for that so no problem that the purchase works against us... I’m attracted by only having half the length of line coming out.

The LFR in the picture is the only kind I have aboard. To prevent the Dyneema from jumping out the ring, I’m using Velcro tie wraps as shown in the picture. It seems to do it’s job...

Tell me what I do wrong, what you would do differently etc.

[s/v Jedi]

I think three tie wraps like in this picture works even better as together with the spliced line they prevent movement by covering the inside opening all around.

[Jim Cate]

Interesting idea, Nick. Have you tried it in anger yet? With your big sails it must take a big winch to overcome the losses in the fool's tackle on a LFR. There is an added attraction in only needing to take in half the length of reefing line, thus speeding up the process of reefing, but conversely there is higher drag on the reefing lines when hoisting the main.

Please let us know how it works out for you!

JIm

[Benz]

Why not splice the white and red line around the LFR and run the blue line through the center hole?

[smj]

Originally Posted by Benz

Why not splice the white and red line around the LFR and run the blue line through the center hole?

Or leave the white and red line spliced as is and also run the blue line through the center, looks like plenty of room. That’s what we’ve done and seems to work fine.

[GRIT]

Originally Posted by smj

Or leave the white and red line spliced as is and also run the blue line through the center, looks like plenty of room. That’s what we’ve done and seems to work fine.

Clever idea. I'll take note of that one.

Jedi, is the inside of your boom easy to get to, or do you have access holes through the sides of the boom? Otherwise, my only complaint would be your ability to check for chaffe. Which, as it happens, is my only complaint about my boom, and the single line reefing I have for the first two reefs. The lines go through a block on a slider, within the boom... Same issues, with chaffe.

Nice idea, and I like the shorter tail hanging out of the boom. How many reefs do you have rigged this way, and is there any chance of the lines getting into a tangle within the boom when they're loose and flailing about?

Cheers.
Paul.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Benz

Why not splice the white and red line around the LFR and run the blue line through the center hole?

Hmmm because my gut feeling says the moving line will do better on the bigger radius turn? Not sure though....

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by smj

Or leave the white and red line spliced as is and also run the blue line through the center, looks like plenty of room. That’s what we’ve done and seems to work fine.

The problem with that is that the lines are not captive to each other... if the ring fails you have two separate lines, while they keep attached using the other method.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Interesting idea, Nick. Have you tried it in anger yet? With your big sails it must take a big winch to overcome the losses in the fool's tackle on a LFR. There is an added attraction in only needing to take in half the length of reefing line, thus speeding up the process of reefing, but conversely there is higher drag on the reefing lines when hoisting the main.

Please let us know how it works out for you!

JIm

During hoisting I’m sure it’ll be fine and much lower drag than anything with double braid running through the sail.

Having a ketch, we don’t reef that often as we can just drop a sail instead. But from what I remember, we hardly need the winch at all, just the last bit. We let the sail luff during reefing and with the full battens it comes down by itself.

We’ll need to try it. The red and white line is some kind of Dyneema as well (Samson Control DPX) so it also runs light through the boom.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by GRIT

Clever idea. I'll take note of that one.

Jedi, is the inside of your boom easy to get to, or do you have access holes through the sides of the boom? Otherwise, my only complaint would be your ability to check for chaffe. Which, as it happens, is my only complaint about my boom, and the single line reefing I have for the first two reefs. The lines go through a block on a slider, within the boom... Same issues, with chaffe.

Nice idea, and I like the shorter tail hanging out of the boom. How many reefs do you have rigged this way, and is there any chance of the lines getting into a tangle within the boom when they're loose and flailing about?

Cheers.
Paul.

Yes we have openings in the back and the front. We use a spare batten to push lines through. I think you may have a Selden boom with those sliders? My idea is stolen from them of-course

I can make it 1:1 by running the red and white line through the ring as well, attaching the end at the gooseneck. In your setup that would be the luff reefing line pulling the slider forward inside the boom.

I have no chafing inside the boom. There are some nuts and bolts but not where the lines run. I used to have 3 reefs plus outhaul, but I don’t use the third reef anymore and I don’t think the line would fit doubled inside the boom... it gets too long.

I’m gonna try it all, it’s easy enough

[osprey877]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I’m working on upgrading our main and mizzen reefing system. I have leech cringles, sheaves in the end of the boom as well as sheaves plus stoppers at the gooseneck.

Right now my reefing lines are tied around the boom, go up through the sail cringle, down through the sheave at the end of the boom, then run forward inside the boom, through the stopper and out the sheave there.

I have full batten sails so the luff comes down by itself and I use my Cunningham to secure the reef point at the luff.

The problem is that we’re lazy and we skip taking in the reefing lines when lowering the sail etc... which means flapping loops of rope, sometimes catching on to things. We used to have double braid creating knots but have been using 3/8” Samson Control DPX which is better as it’s single braid.

My idea is to use 1/4” Amsteel Blue, secure around the boom, up through the sail, down the sheave into the boom, around the low friction ring as in the picture, then back to the end of the boom to secure it to an internal padeye. The 3/8” line that is spliced to the ring goes to the stopper at the gooseneck. We use a winch for that so no problem that the purchase works against us... I’m attracted by only having half the length of line coming out.

The LFR in the picture is the only kind I have aboard. To prevent the Dyneema from jumping out the ring, I’m using Velcro tie wraps as shown in the picture. It seems to do it’s job...

Tell me what I do wrong, what you would do differently etc.

As others have noted, you have the LFR rigged incorrectly. The moving line (the blue one in your picture) needs to go through the donut hole, and the fixed line can either also go through the donut hole as you have rigged it, or can go around the outside as per your blue line. The groove around the outside of the LFR is used to seize the ring to a sail or the rail etc. and not for a running line. As rigged, your LFR will not be low friction.



I would also be worried about the LFR fouling on something inside the boom, either when reefing or raising the sail, and me not being able to see it and so just pulling harder on the winch till something breaks.



I also find the reefing lines a nuisance on my 40' sloop with fully battened main. You say you get the messy loops now because you are too lazy to pull in the slack out of the reefing lines when you lower the sail and that your new system will mean you only have to pull in half as much line. However, I don't think its a good idea to pull the slack out of the reefing lines when you lower the sail as it means you have to pull all that line back out the boom when you next raise the sail and then adjust their length to get the right amount of slack in them. My sail is hard enough to raise without it also having to pull the reefing lines through the boom, so I just flake the lines along the boom inside the lazy jacks. They are then set correctly when I next raise the sail. Different strokes for different folks .


I have thought about attaching a floating ring on the reefing line between the end of the boom and the reef cringle in the sail, and then running some elastic shock cord from the ring to the goose neck, with the intent that as the sail is lowered, the shock cord will pull the reefing line forward automatically and stop it flogging too much, but I suppose its likely to interfere with the set of the sails.


Let us know how your system works out.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Hmmm because my gut feeling says the moving line will do better on the bigger radius turn? Not sure though....

If the line fits through the hole easily, then the radius is big enough. That's how they're designed, after all. Dunno if you're near civilzation, but Tylaska has a huge variety of sizes now, if you have space constraints inside the boom

[GRIT]

Yes, we have a Selden boom. I love it, so far, though I hate not being able to see what's going on in there.

Your idea looks good. I look forward to hearing about the final results.

I'm sure you've already calculated the reef height to be less than half the boom length, but it's a consideration. Second reef, is as you surmised, a 1:1 ratio, so full boom length. We designed the reefs to the maximum the boom could use. So first reef at 3m and second at 6m, the boom is 6.3m long.

Cheers.
Paul.

[cal40john]

I agree with those above that you're using them wrong. Consider the contact area of the rope on the non rotating ring in each case.

https://www.sailmagazine.com/diy/dec...rictions-rings

[Breaking Waves]

lfr configurations -

(a)They are stronger with one line around the outside and the other thru the middle. If you put the two lines thru the middle they are acting to pull the ring apart.

That may or may not matter depending on the loads. But in this application, clew reefing loads can actually be decently high.

(b) In traditional lfr applications, the moving part is usually thru the center and the fixed part around the outside.

However, there have been quite a number of people experimenting using the rings as sheaves for lightweight blocks using various textile and composite axles. And the experience has been that the amsteel has such low friction that quite often it slides around the outside of the ring more easily than the ring turns on these axles. I believe FXTY here had that experience with a running backstay setup using lfrs as sheaves.