Dyneema brands, standing rigging, UV and chafe

[Benz]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

Depends a lot on the specific tape, but I saw a test of a 2-layer wrap of the better 3m black “outdoor” tape and it was quite high protection.

That sort of tape wrap used to be a preferred approach by some of the better rigging mfg’s. They have moved on, not because of better UV but for more “hands off” for the user. The 'tape end peeling/hanging off" was just not a look that the high-end customers liked.

Looks like it may be worth testing some shrouds parcelled with tape (plumbing tape comes in thick layers) and covered over with something to protect the tape. I know there's a lot of concern over windage, but traditionally shrouds were parcelled and served and were much thicker to begin with, and boats still made it places without engines, and reducing weight if not windage must still count for something. Vinyl tape is similar to the PVC coating they put on PBO and Kevlar shrouds, and that excludes the sun entirely.

[Sailorman97]

Originally Posted by Benz

..... I know there's a lot of concern over windage,....

Beyond bizarre. I raced for 20 yrs. All of the speed/ windage gains over the course of a year of racing are wiped out in one mediocre tack.

We had rope rigging and went to stainless steel because of safety and reliability and now people want to go back because of windage concerns.

As if any of these boats are running at peak performance.

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by Benz

Looks like it may be worth testing some shrouds parcelled with tape (plumbing tape comes in thick layers) and covered over with something to protect the tape.

There was a period when black heat shrink tubing was used - you have to thread it on the rope, and have to be a little careful with the heat, but it always struck me as a decently diy solution and I'm not sure why it fell out of fashion. Perhaps the heat shrink material get brittle in UV? IDK.

[seandepagnier]

Originally Posted by Sailorman97

Replacing stainless steel with rope is not something I would do. What is the worst thing that can go wrong on a sailboat other than being holed? Your mast falls over. If your racing exotic ultra light and fast boats sure. A cruising sailboat? Sorry. This is not even a thought for me.

I recall three different cruising boats that lost the rig. The reason: stainless steel.

dyneema does not fatigue and work harden. It does not corrode with crevice corrosion. It is much lighter and the boat sails better. It is more reliable.

After 10 years, the strength is still above the stainless it normally replaces and this is with no cover or special coating.

[seandepagnier]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

There was a period when black heat shrink tubing was used - you have to thread it on the rope, and have to be a little careful with the heat, but it always struck me as a decently diy solution and I'm not sure why it fell out of fashion. Perhaps the heat shrink material get brittle in UV? IDK.

If it does, it has done it's job and extended the life of the stay a bit longer. You could also replace the heat shrink. Would need some kind of low temperature heat gun and patience, as heat can damage dyneema, so maybe this is one reason.

[seandepagnier]

Originally Posted by Sailorman97

Beyond bizarre. I raced for 20 yrs. All of the speed/ windage gains over the course of a year of racing are wiped out in one mediocre tack.

We had rope rigging and went to stainless steel because of safety and reliability and now people want to go back because of windage concerns.

As if any of these boats are running at peak performance.

you mean you went to rope instead of stainless for safety and reliability?

rope rigging is a lot safer as steel cable is extremely dangerous if it breaks from overload.

As for reliability, stainless is not as good as galvanized or dyneema, though 316 is much better than 304.

[seandepagnier]

Originally Posted by Benz

Looks like it may be worth testing some shrouds parcelled with tape (plumbing tape comes in thick layers) and covered over with something to protect the tape. I know there's a lot of concern over windage, but traditionally shrouds were parcelled and served and were much thicker to begin with, and boats still made it places without engines, and reducing weight if not windage must still count for something. Vinyl tape is similar to the PVC coating they put on PBO and Kevlar shrouds, and that excludes the sun entirely.

The weight savings generally gives a much larger performance improvement than the windage increase.

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

Would need some kind of low temperature heat gun and patience, as heat can damage dyneema, so maybe this is one reason.

the best practice for putting heat shrink on dyneema is (generally) to use boiling water - is above the heat necessary to shrink most tubing but well below the range which will damage the dyneema (for short time application) and is extremely easy to maintain at that exact temperature.

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

dyneema does not fatigue and work harden. It does not corrode with crevice corrosion. It is much lighter and the boat sails better. It is more reliable.

Dyneema does have weaknesses, they are just different than SS - it can be relatively easy to cut, and is vulnerable to heat (can be burned by sheets running over it fast), and UV weakens it, is vulnerable to stress risers and bend radius and throat angles which many DIYers don't understand (stayloks are probably easier for DIYers to do perfectly well). In lifeline usage it was most definitely NOT more reliable than SS - the pros were very uncomfortable with dyneema lifelines offshore and they mostly led the ban on it in racing. I personally doubt we have sufficient data to say much about the relative reliability in the shroud application - both should be highly reliable. With stays there has been some indication that dyneema is (much) more vulnerable to harmonic vibration than SS, but that is more anecdotal than statistically solid at this point. Both can be/should be good if handled properly.

As to weight reduction aloft - yea, it is theoretically always nice, but if you actually run the VPP numbers with typical cruising boats it is actually usually a relatively trivial effect (for cruising purposes). .1kts is huge for a race boat, but (generally) really of relatively little importance for a cruising boat. And the heel reduction is rather less than many people might expect - 1 or 2 degree less heel in many cases, not the huge impact many people expect. Now IF you have a high-performance boat, these things are a useful consideration but in that case there are often better alternatives than dyneema to reduce stay/shroud weight aloft - it is rarely used on serious race boats except in runner/check applications as there are better solutions (expensive yes but you sort of sign on to that in high-performance racing)

I'm a Dyneema fan, have worked a lot with it, it is a super material for many applications, but you need to be honest about it and not oversell it. It has weaknesses. It is best if people fully understand the material, its pros AND its cons - that is the safest path.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by Sailorman97

Beyond bizarre. I raced for 20 yrs. All of the speed/ windage gains over the course of a year of racing are wiped out in one mediocre tack.

We had rope rigging and went to stainless steel because of safety and reliability and now people want to go back because of windage concerns.

As if any of these boats are running at peak performance.

You're mistaken: no one is saying that SS has MORE windage than Dyneema; we're saying that parcelled and served Dyneema would have more windage, though less weight, than metal wire.
In most cruising cases, weight savings alone isn't worth the switch to synthetic. I used synthetic because I could far more cheaply and easily DIY it than I could wire, and since I was building my own mast from a bare pole, it was easier to rig it for synthetic to begin with.
But having known the joys of synthetic rigging, I'll never go back to stainless, watching rust streak out the tops of the swages, always on guard for meathooks, worried about lightning, knowing that a snapped shroud can cut you in half like a stick of butter....

[earthbm]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

TrueKote CS 100 is one example I have used.

This actually looks like a great solution! Where would you source it?
https://www.industrialpolymers.com/d...ote-cs-100.pdf

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by earthbm

This actually looks like a great solution! Where would you source it?
https://www.industrialpolymers.com/d...ote-cs-100.pdf

I gotten bought buckets from Chafe gear service . . . . when I was doing some superyacht projects - but they are in Palma de Mallorca, may not be convenient for you.

Chemline Inc. might be the place to try in the USA. 314-664-2230

It is an industrial product, so you pretty much have to go thru industrial distributors . . . . unless you can get Benz here interested to buy some and send some on to you.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

I gotten bought buckets from Chafe gear service . . . . when I was doing some superyacht projects - but they are in Palma de Mallorca, may not be convenient for you.

Chemline Inc. might be the place to try in the USA. 314-664-2230

It is an industrial product, so you pretty much have to go thru industrial distributors . . . . unless you can get Benz here interested to buy some and send some on to you.

This is very useful information. When the dust of all my other loose ends settles, I may try to secure some and fool around with it.
Do you remember a ballpark cost/gallon or /pail? Palma's an expensive place, but it might be a good baseline to start with.
Thanks again for this info.

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by Benz

Do you remember a ballpark cost/gallon or /pail?

I think it was quoted (retail small quantity price) at like $40/gallon. I got a 'mates rate' because I was just helping some people out.

If you are going to fool around a bit, I will share a further option - I may even have mentioned it to you previously - when I seal aluminum toggles on soft shackles I usually coat/dip them in a can of pick-up truck bed liner. This is easy(ier) to get from retail outlets, and has 'seemed' to me to be pretty decent at the task (abrasion and UV coverage). But as I told the OP in a PM, I have never seen any serious testing/certification of it in a rope application, so there might possibly be some 'gotch-ya' that I have overlooked. Of my pieces, I have seen and tested a few after 12 months of use and they seem good, but I have not yet seen one longer duration than that.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

I think it was quoted (retail small quantity price) at like $40/gallon. I got a 'mates rate' because I was just helping some people out.

If you are going to fool around a bit, I will share a further option - I may even have mentioned it to you previously - when I seal aluminum toggles on soft shackles I usually coat/dip them in a can of pick-up truck bed liner. This is easy(ier) to get from retail outlets, and has 'seemed' to me to be pretty decent at the task (abrasion and UV coverage). But as I told the OP in a PM, I have never seen any serious testing/certification of it in a rope application, so there might possibly be some 'gotch-ya' that I have overlooked. Of my pieces, I have seen and tested a few after 12 months of use and they seem good, but I have not yet seen one longer duration than that.

Thanks for the tip--I wonder if plasti-dip as used for tool handles is similar. I get my toggles anodized, but that's only worthwhile for large runs. I'll remember the dip for one-off or custom sizes. I've made some bronze toggles for mooring tackle use, but they're pretty heavy.

[earthbm]

The key I think is stretch, flex, and durability. If someone tests TrueKote (or truck bed lining!) in a standing rigging application over, say, 5 years, and it doesn’t flake all over the desk, I think it would be a Colligo killer.