Dyneema brands, standing rigging, UV and chafe

[Benz]

Originally Posted by earthbm

The key I think is stretch, flex, and durability. If someone tests TrueKote (or truck bed lining!) in a standing rigging application over, say, 5 years, and it doesn’t flake all over the desk, I think it would be a Colligo killer.

Well, but what Colligo sells is the Dyneema and the fittings--you still need those, regardless of coating. You could get your Dyneema elsewhere, but then, you already can, and other than a dubious knock-off or two, no one that I know of is making actual modern deadeyes as well-designed as theirs.
I bought a set of Colligo deadeyes and spliced my own rope to them for shrouds, and now am about to splice a second set of shrouds (DM20 MAX this time, unless I can get Ultrawire without a second mortgage) onto those same ones again.

[earthbm]

Originally Posted by Benz

Colligo deadeyes

About deadeyes... Why are they needed, exactly? Neither the Rigging Doctor nor Colligo have a clear reason (other than the revenue from selling them). Real PITA to make. I can imagine they were needed before the slippery dyneema lashings...

It's probably a noob question, but in what way is a shackle - thimble lashing like the one below worse than a deadeye?

[Benz]

Originally Posted by earthbm

About deadeyes... Why are they needed, exactly? Neither the Rigging Doctor nor Colligo have a clear reason (other than the revenue from selling them). Real PITA to make. I can imagine they were needed before the slippery dyneema lashings...

It's probably a noob question, but in what way is a shackle - thimble lashing like the one below worse than a deadeye?

Unless you have the individual holes, the legs of the lashing tend to pile up and scrape over each other as you tighten, making it difficult to get proper tension. With separator holes, you can more easily "twang" each leg of the lashing one after the other while pulling on the lanyard tail to get that last little bit of tension which is all the difference. What the picture shows is fine, strength-wise, but harder to set up properly, and IMO, less elegant.

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by earthbm

the Rigging Doctor . . . . . . . but in what way is a shackle - thimble lashing like the one below worse than a deadeye?

There is theory, and then there is specific application. I can see three things in your photo which could be improved in theory, but they may or may not be totally moot depending on the specific loads and application.

(1) Split thimbles (like the SS one in your photo) crush at lower loads than solid thimbles (or ones with the split welded shut or with internal cross bars). Whether that is an issue or not depends entirely on what the application peak loads will be.

(2) As Benz mentioned, overlapped/side by side lashings do have more friction than separated lashing legs, even in bare Dyneema; and are thus harder to tension and adjust. But again, whether this is an actual concern depends on the application. On say a large multi-hull where the boat may bend a cm (or more) on each tack, and the stay base angle is high/stay loads lower, it is not so much of a problem because you automatically have slack to work with - on an ultra-stiff/ultra high tension mono it can be more of a problem. As an aside, generally lashings are more difficult to work with than turnbuckles on larger boats. As a second aside, unlike Benz, from an aesthetic perspective I personally like the looks of this sort of lashing better than the separated hole deadeye aesthetic, but for a shroud that should ofc be way secondary to functional considerations.

(3) The way that lashing is 'locked off' is in theory non-optimal, as it locks the legs together and does not allow them to equalize loads between them. This lowers the potential strength of the lashing. In actual practice, it may not matter if the loads are low enough and the lashing was made carefully enough.


"the Rigging Doctor " . . . . . just be a little careful - he makes nice videos, but his technical knowledge is not very deep. He does quite a number of things you would not get away with in serious commercial applications.

[bdgWesternMass]

Enjoying the thread.
Don’t know what plumbers tape is. Thought it was metal tape with holes evenly spaced….

How does a plumber use it?
What is it made from?
Any brands?

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by bdgWesternMass

Enjoying the thread.
Don’t know what plumbers tape is. Thought it was metal tape with holes evenly spaced….

How does a plumber use it?
What is it made from?
Any brands?

Did you accidentally reply to the wrong thread?

In any case Plumber's Tape is generally very thin PTFE (eg Teflon) tape.

It is wrapped on threads before pieces are screwed together. It does two things: (1) eliminates potentially galling and thread friction, and (2) increases the water tightness of the completed joint.

It is generally a pretty commodity item without strong brand preference, but there are different thicknesses that are better in different applications; and also somewhat different formulations for special fluids (like fuel applications).

[bdgWesternMass]

Ahh, Teflon tape use it all the time. Nice and thin and light for Windage and weight

[earthbm]

Originally Posted by bdgWesternMass

Enjoying the thread.
Don’t know what plumbers tape is. Thought it was metal tape with holes evenly spaced….

How does a plumber use it?
What is it made from?
Any brands?

I think this question refers to these plumbing tape references up-thread:

Originally Posted by Benz

You could exclude all light by wrapping in heavy vinyl plumbing tape, then sliding on a thin cover (could be polyester, for price's sake)

Originally Posted by Benz

Looks like it may be worth testing some shrouds parcelled with tape (plumbing tape comes in thick layers) and covered over with something to protect the tape.

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by earthbm

I think this question refers to these plumbing tape references up-thread:

oh, you may well be right - I skipped over the word plumbing and thought Benz was talking about what I call/consider 'electrical tape'? Rather than any sort of special/specific plumbing vinyl tape - idk what that might be.

I know there is plumbing use for self-amalgamating silicone tape.

PTFE is actually a pretty good UV block. There is a PTFE film used for aerospace application UV block - is hard to get because there is limited supply (very nasty production process) which the defense applications gobble up. I worked on a military dirigible project (for persistent surveillance) that used the film to protect the fabric.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

Did you accidentally reply to the wrong thread?

In any case Plumber's Tape is generally very thin PTFE (eg Teflon) tape.

It is wrapped on threads before pieces are screwed together. It does two things: (1) eliminates potentially galling and thread friction, and (2) increases the water tightness of the completed joint.

It is generally a pretty commodity item without strong brand preference, but there are different thicknesses that are better in different applications; and also somewhat different formulations for special fluids (like fuel applications).

There's a thick vinyl plumber's tape, like electrical tape, only 2" wide, that's widely used in California (where I built my boat), for wrapping insulation around outdoor pipes--freezing isn't nearly the problem there as where I live now (and haven't seen it, incidentally). So, essentially a thick electrical tape.
The PTFE tape for plumbing threads (fragile white stuff on small spools) would be completely inappropriate, I think, at keeping UV out, and wouldn't hold up to chafe.
The other Teflon tape, what we call "millionaire's tape," is translucent: not much UV protection, I reckon, but certainly plenty good for chafe. It would almost cost more than the Dyneema it was protecting.

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by Benz

The PTFE tape for plumbing threads
The other Teflon tape, what we call "millionaire's tape,"

There are a million other PTFE options beyond those two -

As I mentioned there are large film options (which I have used on large textile surfaces):

and stuff like:

https://www.uline.com/Product/Detail...B&gclsrc=aw.ds

or

https://www.amazon.com/Machine-Impul...334567654&th=1

or

https://www.uline.com/Product/Detail...Mil-2-x-18-yds

and a whole lot of other options.

I have never used any of these to try to wrap a stay, so I don't know what would be good or not, but in theory, there should be something that is excellent for UV . . . but certainly more expensive that vinyl which may well be 'good' enough. Just needs someone with interest to systematically explore/test the various options - UV testing unfortunately takes time - can accelerate with UV lamps but still take time.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

There are a million other PTFE options beyond those two -

As I mentioned there are large film options (which I have used on large textile surfaces):

and stuff like:

https://www.uline.com/Product/Detail...B&gclsrc=aw.ds

or

https://www.amazon.com/Machine-Impul...334567654&th=1

or

https://www.uline.com/Product/Detail...Mil-2-x-18-yds

and a whole lot of other options.

I have never used any of these to try to wrap a stay, so I don't know what would be good or not, but in theory, there should be something that is excellent for UV . . . but certainly more expensive that vinyl which may well be 'good' enough. Just needs someone with interest to systematically explore/test the various options - UV testing unfortunately takes time - can accelerate with UV lamps but still take time.

That first one is what I call "millionaries tape" Very expensive, but quite useful for some splicing applications, though I can't think it's UV resistant.

The second one looks a lot like "tooltech" for mold surfaces--if it's what I think, it wouldn't be very suitable.

But this PTFE thing is a rabbit trail: when plumber's tape was first mentioned, it was in reference to "pipewrap," not to any teflon product. I can't think of any Teflon product I'd use as UV protection--I think vinyl is better for that. I think your earlier link to industrial plasti-dip is the best course to try.

[kmacdonald]

Dynema standing is sized based on creep, not ultimate strength. That being said, different grades of dynema will require different diameters.

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by Benz

But this PTFE thing is a rabbit trail: when plumber's tape was first mentioned, it was in reference to "pipewrap," not to any teflon product. I can't think of any Teflon product I'd use as UV protection--I think vinyl is better for that. I think your earlier link to industrial plasti-dip is the best course to try.

Yes. I originally did not mean to suggest ptfe for this application, was just answering what was normally called plumbers tape.

But then I did remember my experience with ptfe film in highly engineered and tested application exactly for uv - was this stuff https://www.dupont.com/tedlar/tedlar...lications.html - lol just the way my mind works connecting potentially related things

So, idk, not a cheap solution certainly. Probably not practical. But, just brainstorming, I have the feeling if you were building a cost no objective, unlimited engineering and testing stay, it might well include something like this (altho - 'unlimited' then would probably be carbon and not need UV protection so much I guess').

[Benz]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

Yes. I originally did not mean to suggest ptfe for this application, was just answering what was normally called plumbers tape.

But then I did remember my experience with ptfe film in highly engineered and tested application exactly for uv - was this stuff https://www.dupont.com/tedlar/tedlar...lications.html - lol just the way my mind works connecting potentially related things

So, idk, not a cheap solution certainly. Probably not practical. But, just brainstorming, I have the feeling if you were building a cost no objective, unlimited engineering and testing stay, it might well include something like this (altho - 'unlimited' then would probably be carbon and not need UV protection so much I guess').

Interesting....we used to use a release film for vaccuum-bagging epoxy parts they called Tedlar. Wouldn't have thought it was UV resistant, but maybe in another format.
As far as cost-ineffective shroud choices, well, those abound. Beyond ECSix, there's now Carbolink, the latest in ridiculously expensive carbon standing rigging, with foil-shaped sections, which is so fragile before installation that they have to send an expert from Europe to unpack it from the shipping crate or it will snap. I was on hand when someone incautiously snapped a piece, to the eyewatering replacement cost of $120k
But I'm far more interested in the DIY department, which is dear to my parsimonious heart, and in encouraging the next generation of scrappy, low budget cruisers to find self-sufficiency in the marina dumpster, like I did.