Dyneema rigging on a budget

[andreas.mehlin]

What would you prefer?
A closed stainless steel thimble or an aluminium low friction ring? The low friction ring has a wider and more rounded wall which should result in less friction, with the lashing in mind?

A 70mm low friction ring has a inner diameter at about 30mm.

Or how about using a purchase system with several low friction rings?

[Benz]

Originally Posted by andreas.mehlin

What would you prefer?
A closed stainless steel thimble or an aluminium low friction ring? The low friction ring has a wider and more rounded wall which should result in less friction, with the lashing in mind?

A 70mm low friction ring has a inner diameter at about 30mm.

Or how about using a purchase system with several low friction rings?

A thimble big enough to accommodate the rope for the shroud be wide enough to have decent bend radius for the lashing. An LF ring will have less room for lashings--usually the center hole is kind of small, and the perfect roundness tends to pile all the legs of the lashing on top of each other, making tuning awkward. A thimble does this slightly less.
Several rings can be set up in "cascade," but it's a lot of kit to have there for something you so rarely adjust.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by andreas.mehlin

What would you prefer?

A closed stainless steel thimble or an aluminium low friction ring? The low friction ring has a wider and more rounded wall which should result in less friction, with the lashing in mind?



A 70mm low friction ring has a inner diameter at about 30mm.



Or how about using a purchase system with several low friction rings?

This thread is about low cost, but why not just take a look at the Colligo website and shop https://www.colligomarine.com/ for almost every needed LFR and rigging options. If you want to DIY, at least see how the professionals have designed their gear and systems.

Another resource are the various Figaro and Vendee boats - this is where most of the fibre development is taking place.

Regarding purchase systems, LFRs and bare Dyneema are best suited for either low load and high movement, or high load and low movement. Purchase cascades with medium load and medium movement as for a vang or backstay can work as well but have more friction on the release than ball bearing or roller bearing blocks - no big deal in heavier air but no good in light winds.

Here’s an example on our boat of our running backstays 2:1 purchase, with several metres of travel with no load and 5cm of movement under high load as it’s wound on with the winch:

[longjonsilver]

Originally Posted by fxykty

This thread is about low cost, but why not just take a look at the Colligo website and shop https://www.colligomarine.com/ for almost every needed LFR and rigging options. If you want to DIY, at least see how the professionals have designed their gear and systems.

i can appreciate the well designed gear that Colligo sells, and as the first runner in the area, i can appreciate their desire to get back their development costs. However, marine gear, especially that designed for yachtsmen, is notorious for being overpriced. I just can't see how a piece of machined aluminum is worth sixty some buckarooz.

i have spent considerable time researching diesel engines especially how to get around the Yanmar-Volvo-Westerbeke-Perkins ripoff prices, and i think i have succeeded with Perkins at least.

Its not JUST the money. Its the feeling of being monetarily RAPED that i hate. That is the issue for me at least. And since a competitor to Colligo has not come along yet, i gotta either pay up and pretend to enjoy being raped or else develop and build my own gear.

For the price of one Colligo terminal, i can buy a bar of 1/2"x3"x20' 6061 aluminum. As mentioned by a previous poster, this can be machined with wood working tools - as confirmed by a wood working website. It just can't be that hard to cut, drill, rout and polish a terminal. At least i am gonna try.

Just my $.02 worth
jon

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by longjonsilver

i can appreciate the well designed gear that Colligo sells, and as the first runner in the area, i can appreciate their desire to get back their development costs. However, marine gear, especially that designed for yachtsmen, is notorious for being overpriced. I just can't see how a piece of machined aluminum is worth sixty some buckarooz.



i have spent considerable time researching diesel engines especially how to get around the Yanmar-Volvo-Westerbeke-Perkins ripoff prices, and i think i have succeeded with Perkins at least.



Its not JUST the money. Its the feeling of being monetarily RAPED that i hate. That is the issue for me at least. And since a competitor to Colligo has not come along yet, i gotta either pay up and pretend to enjoy being raped or else develop and build my own gear.



For the price of one Colligo terminal, i can buy a bar of 1/2"x3"x20' 6061 aluminum. As mentioned by a previous poster, this can be machined with wood working tools - as confirmed by a wood working website. It just can't be that hard to cut, drill, rout and polish a terminal. At least i am gonna try.



Just my $.02 worth

jon

I’m also stunned by the cost for basic LFRs - a ton more than equivalent size/strength SS thimbles or rings. Compared to that, or anything made by Harken, Antal, Selden, ..., much of Colligo’s gear really isn’t all expensive in relative terms. In fact it’s a darn sight cheaper to buy a fancy Colligo ring rather than a large block. The running backstay purchase systems I showed earlier cost me USD250 each, vs. USD1450 each using Harken blocks and a bit less for Antal blocks.

Please do let us know the results of your DIY. Can you also anodise them afterwards with a finish that will last as well?

[longjonsilver]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Compared to that, or anything made by Harken, Antal, Selden, ..., much of Colligo’s gear really isn’t all expensive in relative terms.
Please do let us know the results of your DIY. Can you also anodise them afterwards with a finish that will last as well?

Yes, i realize that anything made for yachts is overpriced cuz they price it for people with money to burn, which are who owns the racing yachts....

i cannot anodize them, but i am sure that someone else can - which of course means that they can be colored as well...

jon

[Nauticatarcher]

Have a look at this site blueshark.cc range of aluminium terminators

[longjonsilver]

Originally Posted by Nauticatarcher

Have a look at this site blueshark.cc range of aluminium terminators

Hey thanks, do you see any prices?
jon

[spiv]

Originally Posted by longjonsilver

Hey thanks, do you see any prices?
jon

That website was last updated in 2018.
I have written to them and I will update here if/when I get an answer.

I am interested in buying terminals for 16 and 14mm rope if you or anyone else develops them.

[thinwater]

Just for clarification...


There are two main differences between sheave and splice bend radius:

1. With a splice each leg carries 50% the load, with a sheave each leg carries 100% of the load.
2. A sheave implies repeated bending and fatigue. This is a really big deal for wire cable, less so for other materials, but it always different from splice min. dia.

[waterman46]

I'm sure you can make all the rigging strong enough, but getting it properly tensioned may be harder than you realize. You might lead the lashing "lanyard?" to a winch to tension it, but then it's pulling the assembly sideways as you apply tension. And to make the next turn through the deadeyes, you have to take the lashing off the winch, removing the tension from it, or apply a separate lashing in parallel.
The way to tighten your rigging is to do it under sail. First get them all as tight as you can at the dock. Rigging will not be tight, but good enough to keep the mast from falling. Then go sailing. On the leeward side, while under sail, take up the slack. You will have to do this several times, until the shrouds and deadeye lashings are sufficiently set in place. You'll need a helper if you are in congested waters, since you will have to spend a lot of time tightening the lashings and can't keep a good lookout, and can't tack during the time the lashing is being adjusted.
Another idea, if you can place a turning block on the rail abeam the mast, tie a rope to masthead or use spinnaker halyard. Run that rope through the turning block to a winch. Winch it as tight as necessary to force masthead toward that side of boat and take up slack with deadeye.
There is a reason that nearly all sailboats use turnbuckles not deadeyes. They are a better, more convenient and effective technology that replaces the deadeyes used on boats for thousands of years. You are replacing the wire with the latest technology. Why use a thousand year old technology for the tensioning?

[Biggfell]

Some really good info on here and previous forum threads. Just what I’m looking for.
I’m just starting to spec my rig replacement and as a keen DIYer this thread is great.

I definitely want to change to Dyneema as I can regularly inspect it myself (I hate the never really knowing with SS), I can maintain it myself, it’ll save weight & hopefully save me money on the replacement.

I’m sure I’m going to have quite a few queries which you good folk will hopefully help with.

First up, I’m looking at speccing / sourcing all my fittings as this I think will be the hardest element. A lot of my mast fittings are “T” bars, what have people found suitable for this?
I did see the attached photo somewhere (can’t find it again now!) but this looks undersized on the bend / rope diameter ratio & I could only find examples suitable for up to 8mm Dyneema. I’m going to need my main shrouds to be 13mm

All suggestions are welcome

Richard.

[longjonsilver]

Originally Posted by Biggfell

I definitely want to change to Dyneema as I can regularly inspect it myself (I hate the never really knowing with SS), I can maintain it myself, it’ll save weight & hopefully save me money on the replacement.

And you can KNOW if it is good just by looking..... Not some chemical test, or time related guesswork. And you can put color on your boat too!

jon

[Benz]

Originally Posted by waterman46

I'm sure you can make all the rigging strong enough, but getting it properly tensioned may be harder than you realize. You might lead the lashing "lanyard?" to a winch to tension it, but then it's pulling the assembly sideways as you apply tension. And to make the next turn through the deadeyes, you have to take the lashing off the winch, removing the tension from it, or apply a separate lashing in parallel.
The way to tighten your rigging is to do it under sail. First get them all as tight as you can at the dock. Rigging will not be tight, but good enough to keep the mast from falling. Then go sailing. On the leeward side, while under sail, take up the slack. You will have to do this several times, until the shrouds and deadeye lashings are sufficiently set in place. You'll need a helper if you are in congested waters, since you will have to spend a lot of time tightening the lashings and can't keep a good lookout, and can't tack during the time the lashing is being adjusted.
Another idea, if you can place a turning block on the rail abeam the mast, tie a rope to masthead or use spinnaker halyard. Run that rope through the turning block to a winch. Winch it as tight as necessary to force masthead toward that side of boat and take up slack with deadeye.
There is a reason that nearly all sailboats use turnbuckles not deadeyes. They are a better, more convenient and effective technology that replaces the deadeyes used on boats for thousands of years. You are replacing the wire with the latest technology. Why use a thousand year old technology for the tensioning?

Because the old technology is bombproof and reliable. Besides, with deadeyes made from slick anodized aluminum, the "thousand year old technology" is again cutting edge. With less friction to overcome compared to wooden deadeyes with hemp lanyards, it's very possible to get a good harbor tune. I do it with a small tackle attached to the fall of the lanyard alow and a halyard aloft. Nothing wrong with a little take-up of the lee shrouds during a sail, but I usually get my shrouds tight enough with the spring tune that that's not necessary.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by Biggfell

Some really good info on here and previous forum threads. Just what I’m looking for.
I’m just starting to spec my rig replacement and as a keen DIYer this thread is great.

I definitely want to change to Dyneema as I can regularly inspect it myself (I hate the never really knowing with SS), I can maintain it myself, it’ll save weight & hopefully save me money on the replacement.

I’m sure I’m going to have quite a few queries which you good folk will hopefully help with.

First up, I’m looking at speccing / sourcing all my fittings as this I think will be the hardest element. A lot of my mast fittings are “T” bars, what have people found suitable for this?
I did see the attached photo somewhere (can’t find it again now!) but this looks undersized on the bend / rope diameter ratio & I could only find examples suitable for up to 8mm Dyneema. I’m going to need my main shrouds to be 13mm

All suggestions are welcome

Richard.

There is a Dutch company making T-fittings in all sizes. Forget the name..."Blue wave"? Can't find them online, but I'll come back with their name when I find it. We splice dyneema directly to the bail for running backstays all the time.