Dyneema Standing Rigging a 50' Sloop, Questions for those who have made the swap

[robwilk37]

still... screamin deal...

[Stumble]

I quite frankly have no idea what they are selling, but it isn't SK-75 or SK-78. The strength/size ratio is too weak even for 75. It may be decent quality, but they are not even claiming it's as strong as the 75 should be. It certainly isn't as strong as 78 is.

Either they are doing a terrible job turning the fibers into rope, or they are buying knock off 75 fibers. But this is not the stuff you want holding up your rig.

[CareKnot]

Hey Greg,

Still researching so that I can give you an intelligent answer. What I can say is that SK75 and SK78 have the same strength rating. The difference is SK78 exhibits less creep; that is for SK75, about 0.1% per month under 20% constant load of its rated breaking strength vs. 0.033% for SK78...

OK, just checked Rope Selector : Dynamic Line SK78 - 4mm and 4mm SK78 breaking strength is 1800kg or about 4,000lbs (2 tons). So this stuff on Alibaba is rated the same as the European sourced synthetics.

I think where they have a problem is with the language barrier.

Originally Posted by Stumble

I quite frankly have no idea what they are selling, but it isn't SK-75 or SK-78. The strength/size ratio is too weak even for 75. It may be decent quality, but they are not even claiming it's as strong as the 75 should be. It certainly isn't as strong as 78 is.

Either they are doing a terrible job turning the fibers into rope, or they are buying knock off 75 fibers. But this is not the stuff you want holding up your rig.

[Piratelife]

Originally Posted by CareKnot

Again, I'm jumping in uninvited. But I have some questions and I'm hoping the membership might cut me a little slack.

Looking at Alibaba, I located one of many suppliers of 12 strand 4mm~120mm Dyneema SK78 coated round braid. This product was quoted @ US $0.05 - $0.20 per meter with a 500 meter minimum order.

To put this in perspective, 120 mm = 4.72441 (~ 4 11/16) inches diameter. At $0.20 per meter that comes to $100 for 500 meters (1640.42 feet); that would be around $0.16 per foot. Needless to say, ultimately price is a function of material diameter, size of order, customization, shipping costs and import fees. So I expect the final price to be higher, but I don't know how much higher to estimate. A little input would be nice.

The application cited for this product was automotive/off-road power winches. There was no nautical application categories found on this site. I need to understand how well this product might translate to rigging and to learn more about shipping and import expenses.

The supplier indicated that they would cut custom lengths, make eyelet splices, etc. The inference is that custom products can be made to spec very inexpensively. My feeling is that ordering several sets of standing rigging, with all the shrouds, stays, etc., custom cut and machine spliced, may be the better alternative. But I don't know. Putting the mast, spars and occupants of a yacht; and even the yacht at risk over saving a few pennies is not my intention.

However, this might also be an opportunity for any number of owners of similar production yachts with like sail plans to form 'buyers clubs'. At reduced prices, each owner might want a backup set stowed in a bag. Just thinking out loud here.

Anyone here have any experience with purchases of this nature? I would really like some perspective on this.

FROM THE SITE: ************

Quick Details

Place of Origin: Shanghai, China (Mainland)
Brand Name: SKR
Model Number: SKR Classic-DYNEEMA
Power Source: Electric
Application: ATV/UTV
Capacity: 4000-48000lbs
Material: UHMWPE Dyneema 75 ,78
Construction: 12X1 Strand or 8X2 double braided
Color: Orange or customized
Length: customized
Diameter: customized
Surface: Lago resin
Advantage: High strength and light weight
Resistant: UV and acidity and alkalinity
Packaging & Delivery

Packaging Details: our rope according to your requirement can make any length and dia. or pack the rope as roll, hank, coil, reel, woven bag and so on. All the arrangements to listen to you

Delivery Detail: about 10-30 days after order

I've never used Alibaba website, but I'm skeptical. I've done quite a bit of searching and still have much more to do to be honest. But, from what I've found, I'd expect almost $10/ft for 13-14mm Dyneema either heat set 75 or standard sk78. This seems to be the average I've found and I do want to contact some manufacturers to find out what I can get from them if possible as I would be buying quite a bit of line for my 50' rig.
For those who have used Colligo dux, I'm curious to know what price they charge for Dyneema as I recently found that they use Dynex dux made by Hampidjan if I'm not mistaken, which ive found at ropeable.com.au for about $8.50/ft for 13mm dux after 30% discount for over 100m orders.
I'm still in the early stages of price hunting though and I will do some more searching, and will look into the alibaba site, but those prices almost seem ridiculously cheap compared to what I've seen. If they are true though I reckon it's time to open up a synthetic rigging supply shop close to home and get into the business.
I look forward to hearing more about this and hope that Dyneema sources become more available for everyone through this thread and everyone's collective research.

[CareKnot]

Originally Posted by robwilk37

still... screamin deal...

I concur. Sorry for the confusion.

Btw, the product application is different from their perspective, not necessarily ours. It seems that SK78 12 strand, round coated braid is what I am seeing used for stays and shrouds - except maybe backstays. The strength rating seems to track too. Let me know if I'm off base here would you?

With a price range of $0.50 a meter for 4mm diameter braid to $2 a meter for 120mm diameter braid, that would be around .15 cents a foot, to about .62 cents a foot (for the 4 11/16" diameter Dyneema rated at 48,000 lbs).

I suppose I should find out the shipping charges and import fees next. It would be nice to put a bottom line on this.

[Panope]

Is there concern that synthetic rigging may burn or melt in the event of lightning strike? (sorry if it has already been discussed)

Steve

[CareKnot]

Hi Ciro,

I understand the skepticism. But with every supplier added to the supply chain, prices are multiplied. Please remember that this is a manufacturer with a licence from the patent holder - not a wholesaler. Also we should be aware that their prices are based on mandatory minimum orders nor do they reflect the costs of getting the product shipped halfway around the globe or the fees associated with getting it past customs.

While reading their material, I discovered the company offers free samples for testing purposes. Then again, there is still the shipping and import costs - even for free stuff. But nonetheless, something to consider.

Originally Posted by Piratelife

I've never used Alibaba website, but I'm skeptical. I've done quite a bit of searching and still have much more to do to be honest. But, from what I've found, I'd expect almost $10/ft for 13-14mm Dyneema either heat set 75 or standard sk78. This seems to be the average I've found and I do want to contact some manufacturers to find out what I can get from them if possible as I would be buying quite a bit of line for my 50' rig.
For those who have used Colligo dux, I'm curious to know what price they charge for Dyneema as I recently found that they use Dynex dux made by Hampidjan if I'm not mistaken, which ive found at ropeable.com.au for about $8.50/ft for 13mm dux after 30% discount for over 100m orders.
I'm still in the early stages of price hunting though and I will do some more searching, and will look into the alibaba site, but those prices almost seem ridiculously cheap compared to what I've seen. If they are true though I reckon it's time to open up a synthetic rigging supply shop close to home and get into the business.
I look forward to hearing more about this and hope that Dyneema sources become more available for everyone through this thread and everyone's collective research.

[Piratelife]

Originally Posted by CareKnot

I concur. Sorry for the confusion.

Btw, the product application is different from their perspective, not necessarily ours. It seems that SK78 12 strand, round coated braid is what I am seeing used for stays and shrouds - except maybe backstays. The strength rating seems to track too. Let me know if I'm off base here would you?

With a price range of $0.50 a meter for 4mm diameter braid to $2 a meter for 120mm diameter braid, that would be around .15 cents a foot, to about .62 cents a foot (for the 4 11/16" diameter Dyneema rated at 48,000 lbs).

I suppose I should find out the shipping charges and import fees next. It would be nice to put a bottom line on this.

Just a quick correction, from my observations, it appears the price ranges from 0.50-20.00. So $20 a ft for the 120mm (not $2/ft) which is still somewhat unbelievable considering what I've found elsewhere, but a little more realistic in terms of their costs from this supplier/manufacturer or whatever they may be.

[CareKnot]

My experience from my years sailing in Florida is that a lightning strike on a sailboat with steel rigging or a metal mast generally blows holes in the hull. So a melted shroud might seem like good fortune by comparison. However, mileage may vary. I'm no expert.

Originally Posted by Panope

Is there concern that synthetic rigging may burn or melt in the event of lightning strike? (sorry if it has already been discussed)

Steve

[Piratelife]

Originally Posted by CareKnot

Hi Ciro,

I understand the skepticism. But with every supplier added to the supply chain, prices are multiplied. Please remember that this is a manufacturer with a licence from the patent holder - not a wholesaler. Also we should be aware that their prices are based on mandatory minimum orders nor do they reflect the costs of getting the product shipped halfway around the globe or the fees associated with getting it past customs.

While reading their material, I discovered the company offers free samples for testing purposes. Then again, there is still the shipping and import costs - even for free stuff. But nonetheless, something to consider.

I've already looked into calling other manufacturers for a more direct prices once I have all my measurements and finances in order, but if these options are so much cheaper and also realistic...I'm curious about the cost of some of the more advanced synthetic rigging...you've got me intrigued, unfortunately I'm operating on my phone at the moment but when I get to my computer I will be looking into other options for and comparing with this site. My main draw towards the sk75 or sk78, heat set or otherwise was the affordability for the average joe, which, if the costs at this site are realistic, I'd assume it would still be cheaper to upgrade to a more advanced synthetic being that my rig requires at least a half spool and if the price is worth it I wouldn't mind buying extra in each line size needed. That way I wouldn't have to worry as much about creep or chafe or UV damage...but I admit I haven't put much, if any, thought into the more advanced synthetic material because the cost seemed unrealistic at the time. But I like to factor in time, work involved, maintenance as well as initial cost and reliability into the equation so I will look into it and post my findings.
I'm currently upgrading my solar/battery system and had to ship LiFePo4 batteries from Czech Republic (I will post updates of this project as it unfolds)...if I can ship batteries, I'm sure rope will not be a problem as this was relatively cheap being "hazardous" material.

[CareKnot]

Thanks Ciro,

My eyeglass prescription is waaay out of date, my annual online testing and re-certification cycle is in full swing, my fingers have quit working and eyestrain is killing me. I should close this laptop. Anyway, I hope some of this research is helpful - despite my obvious blunders.

Originally Posted by Piratelife

Just a quick correction, from my observations, it appears the price ranges from 0.50-20.00. So $20 a ft for the 120mm (not $2/ft) which is still somewhat unbelievable considering what I've found elsewhere, but a little more realistic in terms of their costs from this supplier/manufacturer or whatever they may be.

[CareKnot]

I've had the same thoughts, though you are way ahead of me in this process.

This company indicates that they will fill custom orders as long as the minimum quantity is met. I don't know the cost, but it would surely beat our labor costs. So it might be worthwhile to spec the whole job down to the eyelet splices - which they do by machine. How much is your time worth?

Like I said before, at these prices and this minimum order size, you could spec a kit for a reasonable price and the DIY part becomes simply installing and tuning. It would also give you a full set in a bag to store in your favorite supply locker. Worth considering anyway.

Originally Posted by Piratelife

I've already looked into calling other manufacturers for a more direct prices once I have all my measurements and finances in order, but if these options are so much cheaper and also realistic...I'm curious about the cost of some of the more advanced synthetic rigging...you've got me intrigued, unfortunately I'm operating on my phone at the moment but when I get to my computer I will be looking into other options for and comparing with this site. My main draw towards the sk75 or sk78, heat set or otherwise was the affordability for the average joe, which, if the costs at this site are realistic, I'd assume it would still be cheaper to upgrade to a more advanced synthetic being that my rig requires at least a half spool and if the price is worth it I wouldn't mind buying extra in each line size needed. That way I wouldn't have to worry as much about creep or chafe or UV damage...but I admit I haven't put much, if any, thought into the more advanced synthetic material because the cost seemed unrealistic at the time. But I like to factor in time, work involved, maintenance as well as initial cost and reliability into the equation so I will look into it and post my findings.
I'm currently upgrading my solar/battery system and had to ship LiFePo4 batteries from Czech Republic (I will post updates of this project as it unfolds)...if I can ship batteries, I'm sure rope will not be a problem as this was relatively cheap being "hazardous" material.

[mitiempo]

Originally Posted by CareKnot

I concur. Sorry for the confusion.

......to about .62 cents a foot (for the 4 11/16" diameter Dyneema rated at 48,000 lbs)

There is some confusion. the 4 11/16" has to be incorrect. Samson Amsteel has a 47,100 lb minimum strength for 3/4".

They may have meant 12 mm (very strong for that diameter), but certainly not 120mm.

Link to Samson Amsteel specs:

Product

[DumnMad]

Originally Posted by Panope

Is there concern that synthetic rigging may burn or melt in the event of lightning strike? (sorry if it has already been discussed)

Steve

So there must be plenty of cases of burnt halyards

[CareKnot]

Probably lots of confusion. I've been testing on a bunch of US federal health regulations, memorizing an endless array of charts, graphs and procedures and doing the insomnia thing. My brain is turning to mush and running out of my ears. I don't know what I was thinking to tell the truth. Thanks for the catch.

I'm so tired, I just keep embarrassing myself. Glad I'm not navigating dangerous waters right now or I'd really be sunk. ...literally.

Anyway, I think the OP is only concerned with 13mm diameter as a maximum at this point. He wants to spec an order for a Columbia 50 just to see where it goes. I'm no rigger, but I wanted to be able to suggest alternatives to the pricing I've seen on this side of the oceans.

Plenty glad we got some more people (and probably much more qualified people ) to take a look at this scenario; that of pricing custom sets of stays and shrouds from an Alibaba listed rope manufacturer with a known track record.

The 'big idea' is to spec synthetic rigging conversion kits for single yachts and bulk orders for popular production boats. The takeaway is that 'owner groups' could make bulk orders for rigging stock sail plans and circumvent the radical inflation of the usual supply chain. I mean, 4mm SK78 @ $0.50/meter (before shipping) has a nice ring to it, no?

Btw, just a heads up; the product table in your link is for determining splicing strength, not breaking strength.

Originally Posted by mitiempo

There is some confusion. the 4 11/16" has to be incorrect. Samson Amsteel has a 47,100 lb minimum strength for 3/4".

They may have meant 12 mm (very strong for that diameter), but certainly not 120mm.

Link to Samson Amsteel specs:

Product