Dyneema Standing Rigging a 50' Sloop, Questions for those who have made the swap

[44'cruisingcat]

Is there any problem replacing a SS forestay with a synthetic if you have roller furling?

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Is there any problem replacing a SS forestay with a synthetic if you have roller furling?

Not really. I think someone tried to make a furler for it but it never really took off. The problem is that the dyneema isn't torsionally very stable and roller curlers tend to truly on the stability of the wire.

It could happen with some of the new generation torsion ropes used in code furlers, but frankly by the time you pay for them you can probably switch to carbon extrusions.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Stumble

Not really. I think someone tried to make a furler for it but it never really took off. The problem is that the dyneema isn't torsionally very stable and roller curlers tend to truly on the stability of the wire.

It could happen with some of the new generation torsion ropes used in code furlers, but frankly by the time you pay for them you can probably switch to carbon extrusions.

Feeling a bit dense... but I'm really not sure what you're saying here...


edit: maybe my question wasn't clear. I have a conventional roller furler on a SS forestay. Would there be any problem (such as abrasion where the furler bearings sit on the forestay) in replacing the SS forestay with synthetic?

[Panope]

Originally Posted by Stumble

Panope,

As a very rough rule of thumb when switching from stainless wire to a heat set youneed to increase the MBL to about double the MBL of the wire. Not because you need the strength, but in order to keep creep to an acceptable level (generally assumed to be .1"/year).

Because non heat-set has about three times the creep of heat-set figure you would need to increase the MBL by the same, so your 25k MBL went to 50k MBL on conversion to heat-set, then to 150k MBL when switching to non heat-set.


I should point out that I have zero experience with steel, so you would really need to compare its stretch to stainless to have a better idea.


So very roughly you would be looking at 1.5" for standard dyneema, or 9/16 HSR.

Wow! That would be some crazy looking shrouds. I was hoping the "low stress rig" would give an allowance that would keep things reasonable. I guess a call to Colligo is in order.

Thanks,

Steve

[Panope]

Originally Posted by SailRedemption

Panope,
Your rigging seems quite large for that boat, especially if it's a low stress rig. You could probably use 3/8 wire in SS and be good. That said you would need 13mm dux if you went Colligo and similar. You size by creep not breaking. We had 13mm dux on our 3/8" wire uppers and intermediates. We have a high aspect rig but no swept spreaders so the loads are relatively low.

If you want more information, check out Colligo website as they have a lot of free information. Also, check out 59-sailingnorth podcasts with John Franta, great information there where they discuss anything you want to know. Even talks about covering the rope and temperature characteristics. Or call John at Colligo because he's just a super nice guy and very helpful and will actually encourage you to do it yourself rather than have them make up your shrouds which is not the norm.

How do your turnbuckles have a foot of travel? I have e 3/4 turnbuckles on a few of mine and they only open 6".

Ronnie

Your intuition is correct, Ronnie. 3/8" wire would probably be adequate.

When I re-rigged Panope from a 4 shroud (per side) schooner to a 1 shroud Sloop, I simply increased the shroud strength by 4 (1/4" to 1/2"). Of course, the old 1/4" X 4 rig would NEVER have all 4 shrouds loaded equally so the new 1/2" is certainly a stronger rig.

I'll definitely give Colligo a call. Hopefully John will have a feel for how much (if any) a difference this old fashioned, low stress rig will have compared to the typical "modern" rig that he usually deals with.

My turnbuckles are another case of supreme over-kill. Cheepo Chinese Industrial turnbuckles. 1 inch X 12. About 50,000 lb. breaking strength. There is only one per side.

I think they "look the part".

Steve

[SailRedemption]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Feeling a bit dense... but I'm really not sure what you're saying here...


edit: maybe my question wasn't clear. I have a conventional roller furler on a SS forestay. Would there be any problem (such as abrasion where the furler bearings sit on the forestay) in replacing the SS forestay with synthetic?

I don't think so, although John at Colligo are making some kind of furler with synthetics. Listening to the podcast of him explaining it, I don't understand but if I had a picture I would. The fibers would most likely get grabbed a lot by the plastic bearings in the furler. I used SS wire for my two headsail furlers with stalok fittings.

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Feeling a bit dense... but I'm really not sure what you're saying here...


edit: maybe my question wasn't clear. I have a conventional roller furler on a SS forestay. Would there be any problem (such as abrasion where the furler bearings sit on the forestay) in replacing the SS forestay with synthetic?

I think my answer wasn't quite responsive.

The short answer is that I am not aware of any roller furler that can be placed over a dyneema forestay. It might be possible in the future, but between abrasion and torque in the rope I doubt it.

Colligio has a roller furler that works over dyneema, but the sail can't be reefed. It's a lot like the old style wire luff furlers, but relies on a torsion resistant rope to carry the load. This might be acceptable for a pure race boat, but I can't see it on anything else. But I also have no experience with it, so I find I really wanted to know I would call John.

[44'cruisingcat]

Thanks. So the forestay remains SS.

[SF Bay Dude]

Originally Posted by SailRedemption

Hi friends,
Sorry for the delay on this, but I have been organizing boat paperwork for some time now. But, I have crunched some numbers for you guys. My boat is a 47' cutter, but we'll only be talking about everything sans headstays. I have uppers, intermediates, and lowers, backstay and babystay. My wires would have been 1/2" and 3/8". I have a high aspect rig, so my shrouds are quite longer than most with a 66' mast.

I did a quick look online at riggingonly for my wire and swage and swageless fitting prices. I did not include labor cost to make up wire ends for either. Turnbuckles were excluded as well, but for anyone interested, it was about $1200 for those in the Hayn open variety for all stays.

All prices are approximate.

For my boat:
Colligo Dux with terminators = ~$4600
Wire with swage fittings = ~$2600
Wire with swageless fittings = ~$3800

Had I chose wire I would have definitely gone swageless so it wasn't a far off battle for a rig you can fix. I may have priced "compacted wire" (dyform is not made any longer) which I'm sure wouldn't be cheap as the 1/4" is as much as the 3/8" 1x19 wire. That said I probably wouldn't have actually gotten it.

Now this is a bigger boat with bigger shrouds so it's up to you to decide. I have an old Isomat rig so I had some challenges to overcome but John at Colligo helped us work through it. Stemball and large sizes, etc. It very well could be a closer game with someone with 1/4"-5/16" wire. For instance my 65' 1/2" wire backstay needed 16mm dux which was over a boat buck, most don't need anything near that! I did shave off at least 200 pounds from aloft.

All said and done it was about $5800 to Colligo and I would definitely do it again. I could have saved about $700 if I had did the splices myself, but I didn't have time so I had them do it while my wife and I worked offshore. John Franta and his team are awesome to work with and I'm glad to be a part of the rope rigging revolution. (:

I'll soon have a write up this summer after we get some sailing done and really give the rig some love.

I wasn't paid for this and I don't work for them, just satisfied thus far with everything.

Regards,
Ronnie
s/v Redemption

Fantastic information, and thanks for the write up! Keep us posted on how she tunes up, whether she feels stiffer under sail, and anything else that pops up. Fair winds!

[Stumble]

From the refits I have seen that looks pretty typical. But my guess is a good bit of the difference is in the mast terminators that had to be changed from wire to dyneema. Next time around the costs will be far less.

And think about this, for a couple hundred bucks you added about 6,300lbs of righting moment back to the boat. Assuming the boat is 15' wide, that's the equivilant of adding 4-5 people always hiking out on the high side (840'*lbs). That's a massive increase in the boats stiffness.

[RocketScience]

Originally Posted by CAELESTIS

Panope, you can PM me if you want the contact info for the Pretorien 35 that converted to Dux rigging with Coligo. He is in the PNW.


https://svvalerosorefitpage.shutterfly.com/499

I am the "He" that converted to synthetics. Ask me anything.

[longjonsilver]

i just did a cost study for a DIY rerigging project, using either StaLoc fittings or DIY splicing using Colligo Marine terminals. Also assuming a reuse of existing turnbuckles.

Costs based on 50' forestay, backstay and upper shrouds, 25' lower shrouds and staysail stay.

Both rigs assume a SS 1x19 for the headstay to allow roller furling.

38' boat, 15,000 lb displacement, 5/16 SS 1x19 or 9mm Colligo Dux.

The SS 1x19 came in at $2322.00
The Colligo Dux came in at $3190.00

i am sure that costs for the synthetic rigging will drop as more people use it.

[goat]

Originally Posted by longjonsilver

i just did a cost study for a DIY rerigging project, using either StaLoc fittings or DIY splicing using Colligo Marine terminals. Also assuming a reuse of existing turnbuckles.

Costs based on 50' forestay, backstay and upper shrouds, 25' lower shrouds and staysail stay.

Both rigs assume a SS 1x19 for the headstay to allow roller furling.

38' boat, 15,000 lb displacement, 5/16 SS 1x19 or 9mm Colligo Dux.

The SS 1x19 came in at $2322.00
The Colligo Dux came in at $3190.00

i am sure that costs for the synthetic rigging will drop as more people use it.

I haven't converted yet, but a lot of people have been using sailmaker's thimbles instead of the colligo fittings. Interested in price comparison.

[longjonsilver]

Originally Posted by goat

I haven't converted yet, but a lot of people have been using sailmaker's thimbles instead of the colligo fittings. Interested in price comparison.

i'm sure that sailmakers thimbles are a lot cheaper. The Colligo fittings are $66 EACH for 9mm. WOW!

like CareKnot pointed out, there are cheaper alternatives. Speciality stuff (boat hardware) is ridiculously expensive. The prices for synthetic rigging WILL come down.

For instance: from Amazon.ca a Ronstan Sailmakers SS Thimble for 5/16" (8mm) costs $37Canadian or $26 US. Thats $40 per end or $80 per shroud/stay cheaper. On the above estimation for my boat thats $640 saving on the rig, making the dyneema about the same price as the SS

jon

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by longjonsilver

i just did a cost study for a DIY rerigging project, using either StaLoc fittings or DIY splicing using Colligo Marine terminals. Also assuming a reuse of existing turnbuckles.

Costs based on 50' forestay, backstay and upper shrouds, 25' lower shrouds and staysail stay.

Both rigs assume a SS 1x19 for the headstay to allow roller furling.

38' boat, 15,000 lb displacement, 5/16 SS 1x19 or 9mm Colligo Dux.

The SS 1x19 came in at $2322.00
The Colligo Dux came in at $3190.00

i am sure that costs for the synthetic rigging will drop as more people use it.

I would suggest comparison shopping the Dux. The Colligio stuff is very nice, but it comes at about a 30-50% premium compared to NER HSR.