Foot in or out?

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Bigjim

You may not care about a foot rope or free foot but if it gets me to my destination a couple of hours sooner, then I'd like to know! An efficient cruiser is a fast cruiser. What's so hard to understand about that?

My point was that it's a very small adjustment.

You might save a couple hours with that adjustment perfect while racer guy finishes half a day earlier due to newer sails, matching prebend, proper mast rake, better steering and sail trim ......... and if cruising taking advantage of the tide and current

[Bigjim]

Originally Posted by thomm225

My point was that it's a very small adjustment.

You might save a couple hours with that adjustment perfect while racer guy finishes half a day earlier due to newer sails, matching prebend, proper mast rake, better steering and sail trim ......... and if cruising taking advantage of the tide and current

Isn't that the point? We are not Olympic racers. We are not Fastnet racers. We are just amateur club racers spending some fun time in our sailboats. The most important part of our race is getting to the club to have a cocktail and dinner.

I like learning and doing things the correct way or the most efficient way. Often foot ropes and lugs were added to make the sail easier to handle but had the unintended consequence of making the sail less efficient. Sure, the efficiency may only go from 90% to 88%. You're absolutely right, it may not make much of a difference. Sail trim or cleaning the bottom may be much more important, but in this post I'm asking about the foot rope.

In my next post I may ask about rake or trim or something else, but that's then, this is now. Don't lose the "tree" for the sake of the "forest"!

[Bigjim]

In all things, the first competitor is yourself. If you can beat your last time, you are a winner! Once you have your personal game the best you can make it then you need to start worrying about everyone else.

I've raced on other people's boats for years. We have a few single design boats in our club. When the boats are equal in design and equipment, then crew and everything comes into play. Teamwork and strategy become more important.

I don't care whether we finish first or last. I'm a cruiser at heart. But sailing efficiently and fast is always the goal no matter where you are going.

[Dave22q]

You may not care about a foot rope or free foot but if it gets me to my destination a couple of hours sooner, then I'd like to know! An efficient cruiser is a fast cruiser. What's so hard to understand about that?[/QUOTE]

Speaking for myself, efficiency and speed are of minimal importance. Driving or flying is more efficient but there is much to be said for relaxing where the loudest noise is a seagull.

[GoAway]

If there is much difference between the condition of the 2 sails shape-wise, using the better sail will make far more difference in your speed and pointing ability than a loose or attached foot.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Dave22q

Speaking for myself, efficiency and speed are of minimal importance. Driving or flying is more efficient but there is much to be said for relaxing where the loudest noise is a seagull.

This is what I'm trying to learn after racing for 15 years to win the Cup, the Broken Mast, or the Plate.

This includes maybe 300-350 races and four boats two of which were new. (all beach cats) Two with spinnakers.

50 of these races were distances races of between 20 to 100 miles which for me were the most fun that is unless I got behind early, then it sucked

[waterman46]

Actually the racing advice from Thomm is very relevant to the OP's question. If he could get into a one-design fleet somehow, and make decent starts, then he can answer his own question by trials of the mainsails much better than a bunch of us theorizing here on the forum.

Racing PHRF can be an exercise in frustration unless your boat is near the top of the boat speed range compared to the others. BTDT for years, both one-design and PHRF in the same season, in a Cal29. The crew and skipper had a lot more fun in the one-design races - even though we placed a consistent third out of 8 or 10, we could really see the differences with sail trim.

So its a shame there if there is no Cal27 one design class available to the OP.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by waterman46

Actually the racing advice from Thomm is very relevant to the OP's question. If he could get into a one-design fleet somehow, and make decent starts, then he can answer his own question by trials of the mainsails much better than a bunch of us theorizing here on the forum.

Racing PHRF can be an exercise in frustration unless your boat is near the top of the boat speed range compared to the others. BTDT for years......

This is very good advice.

To enjoy racing PHRF, you must have a boat that can stay in the lead pack.........and/or near the front

If you don't have boat speed, you won't learn anything because you will be too far back and totally out of touch with the main group. (small sail adjustments mean nothing in this type of scenario without a good, fast sailboat)

The boat I raced PHRF on the most was very fast downwind so liked to enter it in distance races that had a downwind start.

I'd modify the boat by adding a jib and take the penalty just for the speed.

The boat at that time was designed for a singlehander so the start was quite complicated handling three sails.....main, jib, and spinnaker and hitting the line at speed but when I could do that I could hold the lead for an hour or two depending on the race against much faster rated boats which almost always guaranteed a win.....

It was also so nice to hold the lead against faster rated boats for even an hour or so because it totally freaked them out and was most satisfying for any competitive person that raced sailboats against faster much more expensive boats with crews that had more experience

Sail selection is important also. You need your newest flattest sails if you know the wind will rotate and turn the downwind leg into almost a reach......if downwind all the way you can use older sails which are usually blown out and larger.....

It's the same with your batten selection.......thick or thin depending on the expected conditions

[Jim Cate]

To enjoy racing PHRF, you must have a boat that can stay in the lead pack.........and/or near the front

This makes no sense at all. PHRF fleets will have boats with a wide range of ratings and hence boat speed. After the start, the fleet will start to spread out according to their ratings and the skills of their crews. It is ludicrous to suggest that a boat with a high PHRF rating (large number) should be part of the "lead pack" of boats with much smaller (low number) ratings, yet they can certainly be on the podium when corrected time is calculated.

And that is just specifically related to the way mixed fleet racing goes. To add that you must be in the front to enjoy the racing is even more ludicrous.

When I raced PHRF in the SF area, I had a Yankee 30 that rated 168. The fleet included Olsen 30s rating 102 and Cal 40s at 120... and even Cheoy Lee 30s at 258. I enjoyed the racing when I started and was pretty unsuccessful, and I enjoyed it (perhaps more so) in later years when I began winning on corrected time (and sometimes overall). But in such a mixed fleet there was no "lead pack"... we were spread out over the ocean.

thomm, you seem to always want to equate things to your personal history of fleet racing in beach cats, apparently a highly skilled and competitive group. The OP has specifically mentioned that he is interested in "beer can" type racing in a mixed fleet and informal settings. I think advice should be related to that sort of venue.

Jim

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

This makes no sense at all. PHRF fleets will have boats with a wide range of ratings and hence boat speed. After the start, the fleet will start to spread out according to their ratings and the skills of their crews. It is ludicrous to suggest that a boat with a high PHRF rating (large number) should be part of the "lead pack" of boats with much smaller (low number) ratings, yet they can certainly be on the podium when corrected time is calculated.

And that is just specifically related to the way mixed fleet racing goes. To add that you must be in the front to enjoy the racing is even more ludicrous.

When I raced PHRF in the SF area, I had a Yankee 30 that rated 168. The fleet included Olsen 30s rating 102 and Cal 40s at 120... and even Cheoy Lee 30s at 258. I enjoyed the racing when I started and was pretty unsuccessful, and I enjoyed it (perhaps more so) in later years when I began winning on corrected time (and sometimes overall). But in such a mixed fleet there was no "lead pack"... we were spread out over the ocean.

thomm, you seem to always want to equate things to your personal history of fleet racing in beach cats, apparently a highly skilled and competitive group. The OP has specifically mentioned that he is interested in "beer can" type racing in a mixed fleet and informal settings. I think advice should be related to that sort of venue.

Jim

It makes sense if you are racing to win.

To me winning means the first boat to arrive at the island 12-15 miles offshore or the start finish line

Sometimes it's impossible to hold off a faster fleet for an entire race but if you can jump them at the start and your boat is fast comparatively speaking, you may have a chance

It's possible I did too much racing one design when I first started and was just used to trying to be the first boat over the finish line at the end........

As far as the PHRF Racing, I know folks that would just buy a boat because of the generous rating so he could win even if he finished 30 minutes to an hour behind the fleet.

I could just never get into that although ratings have helped me in the past when I was forced to race PHRF because everyone was buying a different boat

To me though it's just fun to lead the fleet (spinnaker fleet) for a few miles on a slower rated boat........my rating on the Nacra-17 was around 65.3 with the jib mod penalty against boats with ratings near 57-59 (ARC 22- I20) so we were pretty close at least which made it possible to hold a lead in the right conditions

As far as me equating things to my personnel history, that's correct.

I try to share my experiences with racing possibly to save others (new racers) some headaches, but I'm coming from the win at all cost crowd (which was how I used to be when I raced)

Some folks though just want to be part of the scene and are not that competitive.

These people I envy at times.

It must a much more relaxing way to live.

So, now since I really enjoy boating/sailing and the sea, I'm trying to learn cruising. I play chess online for the competition so that I don't ruin my sailing enjoyment by racing

It used to drive me nuts to lose a buoy race by 30-45 seconds because I oversheeted by an inch or so, or that my prebend was off and I couldn't point with the leaders when the wind got up a bit, or maybe I forgot to adjust my downhaul back tight for the upwind leg, or just totally forgot to readjust the mast rotation from the downwind leg to the upwind leg position and so on

Another mistake I used to make was tacking away from the local fleet for clear air when they already knew where the best wind was probably going to be and the least opposing current...